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11-09-2019, 09:45 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Aurora CO
Posts: 18
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51% Rule for RV10
Hi Guys,
I am currently using a builder assist and I am working with them together, not in all times, some of the time I work alone. I was trying to determine how much credit I get for each task that I do. The only source I found was this:
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/...st_job_aid.pdf
Is there any other source for RV10 or is this it?
Should I consider that all the task amount under the AM-Builder columns (C&D) as the maximum amount of credit I will get assuming I did that entire task? Or is there another source per plane that brakes it down differently?
Did anyone create an excel or some other system to help track this based on tasks allocated by the FFA for each portion?
Much appreciated,
Nir
__________________
Nir
RV10 with Builder Assist
2019-20 VAF Dues Paid.
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11-09-2019, 10:17 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,297
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From my research, any work that you are a part of, including professional assistance, counts towards the 51%. You can have 100% professional assistance as long as you are present for every hour of it. In fact, it doesn't have to be you. It can be ANY amatuer builder. What doesn't count is paying someone to do the work that you are not a part of.
If you are doing a quick build, that could be a problem, as 49% has already been done by professionals.
EDIT: Ignore the previous statement. I misread your post and thought the assistance service did work without you.
Larry
__________________
N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019
Last edited by lr172 : 11-10-2019 at 10:36 AM.
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11-09-2019, 11:46 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172
(SNIP)
If you are doing a quick build, that could be a problem, as 49% has already been done by professionals.
Larry
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I don't think that's correct. I'm sure MEL or someone will come along and provide a proper quote of the regs.
The so-called "51%" rule is often misunderstood. IMHO, the rule states that an amateur builder must perform 51% of the OPERATIONS that are required to build an aircraft. NOT 51% of the hours required to build one.
A quick-built kit merely buys you time. The builder of a Quick Built aircraft still can perform nearly 100% of the OPERATIONS required to build the plane. (Otherwise, how could a "2-weeks to taxi" program exist?)
I stand ready to be corrected, of course...............
__________________
Pete Hunt, [San Diego] VAF #1069
RV-6, RV-6A, T-6G
ATP, CFII, A&P
2020 Donation+, Gladly Sent
Last edited by PCHunt : 11-09-2019 at 11:46 PM.
Reason: typo
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11-10-2019, 07:04 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172
From my research, any work that you are a part of, including professional assistance, counts towards the 51%. You can have 100% professional assistance as long as you are present for every hour of it. In fact, it doesn't have to be you. It can be ANY amateur builder. What doesn't count is paying someone to do the work that you are not a part of.
If you are doing a quick build, that could be a problem, as 49% has already been done by professionals.
Larry
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The reg and form for compliance, use the term tasks. As one who built a QB kit, I can assure you that the QB does NOT do 49% of the tasks. In fact I had to drill out rivets and redo two of the main longerons on my QB because they were riveted with skins dimpled and longerons NOT countersunk. The QB does nothing for the fiberglass work, which is both a large number of tasks and huge amount of hours. It does nothing for wiring, and clearly paid close attention to keeping the remaining tasks to well above the 51% level.
__________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD
RV-10 40866
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11-10-2019, 07:15 AM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,627
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Unless you are writing a check for the aiplane to be built, you should be OK. There is a FAA checklist for kits that are not on the approved 51% kit list. My recommendation would be to discuss it with your DAR.
Vic's opinion (and as a DAR)---the fact that you are aware of your obligations tells me that you should be fine.  . Just be prepared to have documentation if asked.
Vic
__________________
 Vic Syracuse
Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
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11-10-2019, 07:27 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Delaware, OH (KDLZ)
Posts: 4,196
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Pete is correct. Plus there are tasks that don?t account against the percentage, because the FAA expects them to be done by professionals.
To educate yourself and get the real facts, call Van?s on Tuesday and ask for the form they submitted to the FAA for the RV-10 quick build. It will list all the tasks the FAA measures and the exact percentages for the quick build kit. You have the generic form, but the Van?s version will have some of the data filled in and approved by the FAA to meet the 51% rule.
At the end, you have to sign a document stating the the aircraft was 51% amateur built. Also, this doesn?t mean built by you. It could be fifty people as long as you didn?t pay any of them. It also asks what tasks were professionally done.
If you list quick build by Van?s, panel by AFS, Stein, or Aerotronics, and painted by your favorite painter, you?ll be fine. I can assure you that FSDO or a DAR won?t question you on the details unless they have direct knowledge of you using a paid professional builder to assist that would cause you not to be 51% amateur built.
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11-10-2019, 08:03 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Covid Country-SoCal
Posts: 1,081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172
If you are doing a quick build, that could be a problem, as 49% has already been done by professionals.
Larry
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Professionals? Sez who? ;-)
-Marc
__________________
RV-10
N814RV
2020 Donation Made
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11-10-2019, 08:34 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Medford, NJ USA
Posts: 283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse
Vic's opinion (and as a DAR)---the fact that you are aware of your obligations tells me that you should be fine.  . Just be prepared to have documentation if asked.
Vic
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I would assume that the conversation during the DAR inspection would make it clear that you did build the plane. Is that sufficient? What documentation would you recommend? Would a handwritten builders log and photos be enough? Would you recommend completing the FAA task list to show which tasks you completed to meet the 51% rule.
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11-10-2019, 09:12 AM
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sherman, CT
Posts: 794
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From my experience, the required AND notarized 8130-12 will satisfy the DAR responsibilities and concerns regarding fabrication issues. After all the builder/applicant is certifying to the FAA that the aircraft complies with the amateur build standards. Additionally the form allows for more than one person to be included in the certification.
__________________
Jake
RV6 #20477 completed 1991 sold.
RV7 #72018 N767T first flight 11/21/2017 350+ hrs.
IO-360M1B MT 3 blade, Dual AFS 5600 QUICK Panel.
Manual Flaps. (KOXC)Oxford, CT, (0NY0)North Creek, NY.
1941 J3 Cub skis,floats.
2020 dues gladly paid.
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11-10-2019, 10:35 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plummit
Professionals? Sez who? ;-)
-Marc
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so correct. I should have stated "paid service".
__________________
N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019
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