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  #21  
Old 08-27-2019, 08:15 AM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by togaflyer View Post
The bonding failure, as others said, could be from poor prepping to squeezing out to much material when it was installed, leaving only a skin coat to adhere the window. Going forward, I would recommend the Cee Bailey?s windows. Their windows will require only minimal trimming. Also, google ?Glasair Sportsman 2x2 window installation. There is a 5 part series how to do it. My windows were installed that way. There is no exterior fiberglass work when installing windows with this method.
A) Why would the Bailey windows make a difference?

B) With ~5,000 installed and flying RV-10 windows and one failed window, does the data support changing the process?
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Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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  #22  
Old 08-27-2019, 08:49 AM
bcondrey bcondrey is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 524
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The aircraft appears to have received its AW cert back in 2007. It?s certainly possible that Lord adhesive was used but it?s relative widespread use in RV-10s didn?t start until several years later when it was recommended as an alternative by a well known supplier of aftermarket products. With that in mind, it MIGHT be safe to say that the adhesive isn?t Weld-On because of the color (Weld-On is a bright white color), but beyond that it?s a LOT of speculation. I?ve personally done test samples and with proper surface prep I know for a fact that the Lord adhesive will adhere well with the plexi breaking before the bond fails.
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  #23  
Old 08-27-2019, 08:55 AM
rongawer rongawer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright View Post
A) Why would the Bailey windows make a difference?

B) With ~5,000 installed and flying RV-10 windows and one failed window, does the data support changing the process?
A: Less trimming, but certainly the same adhesion issue.

B: This is a very good point. Statistically speaking, 1 failure is an anomaly. Speaking as nuclear engineer - it's an issue that needs further review. I recommend obtaining a several samples of remaining adhesive, possibly one of the other windows if you're going to redo those too, and contacting the main vendors of the potential products, Lord and/or Weldon, and see if they are willing to identify the product. If it's theirs, I'm guessing they would like to understand the failure as well and you might be able to share for the group anything you learn.

P.S. Glad you landed safely with a good outcome; good job man.
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Ron Gawer

- RV10, Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"...many great hours and happy landings so far.
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
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  #24  
Old 08-27-2019, 09:14 AM
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9GT 9GT is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Southern Michigan
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I didn't care for the window installation method Van's recommends in the instructions when I built my RV-10. I have read way too many stories of the transparencies crazing from the Weldon and opted for the Rutan composites method that I used building the Cozy MKIV. The Rutan planes have used this method since the 1970's and I still follow their groups. Never heard of a window falling out using this method or crazing from a chemical reaction using epoxy vs Weldon. My building buddy has over 700 hours and 10 years on the Cozy MKIV we built and not a sign of any transparency issue. They fly at speeds and altitudes comparable to the RV flyers. I am not familiar with the Lord adhesive method but wouldn't get near Weldon with a 10' pole due to crazing. I replaced all the transparencies on my C-152 years ago and used Weldon to install the compass mount following the mfg instructions. Within a couple days the area around and under the compass mount had crazing.
This is how I installed my transparencies on my RV-10:
Prep the mating surfaces of the transparencies 3/4" wide on both sides and edge using 220 grit. Use a light to inspect after you blow off the dust. There can be no shiny areas. I use several layers of 3-M electrical tape to tape off the joint line then cover that with a layer of Gorilla Tape. The Gorilla Tape will stand up to any abuse and even light sanding while the electrical tape under it will allow EZ removal when your done leaving a nice clean edge that will require minimal work to finish. I left my tape on right up through paint.
Prep the fiberglass mating surfaces with 40-60 grit. There MUST not be any shiny areas in the prepped surfaces and they must be dust and contaminate free. Paint the mating surfaces with a very thin coat of pure epoxy. Lay a bead of epoxy/flox mixed to a peanut butter consistency and install the transparency. Make sure there are no voids of flox under the transparency. I used the per plans method to clamp and hold the transparencies in place. Clean up the squeeze out and let cure.
Make a two layer 2" wide BID tape wet out on clear 4-6 mill plastic long enough to go around the joint. Lay the plastic down on a flat table and mark it using a permanent medium point Sharpie. I use a 2" wide 6' straight edge and just trace around it. Depending on how many tapes you need you can just stack them up. Cut your BID a couple inches wider and longer that what you need. Roll the cut bid up carefully to maintain size and shape and transfer it to your marked plastic and carefully unroll it over the marked plastic. When its properly positioned wet it out. Don't over wet it, just make sure its wet out. Now do it again with the second layer. You will be able to see the cut line you drew right through the wet out fiberglass. Cut it out to the lines with a good pair of scissors. Again make sure the area is properly prepped and paint the surface with a thin coat of pure epoxy. Fill any low areas between the joints with epoxy/flox mix level. Lay the 2" wide cut fiberglass tape butt up against your taped edge over the transparency and fiberglass peeling the clear off as you lay the tape down over the joint. The plastic will hold the tape to size and you will be able to make curves as you peel and apply the tape. Stipple it down with a 1" wide paint brush. Use a light to make sure there is no trapped air. Now lay peel ply over the joint and stipple that down. When cured, strip off the peel ply and you have a very secure window installation that will require minimal finishing to get ready for paint.
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Howell, MI
RV-10: #41686 Under Construction
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  #25  
Old 08-27-2019, 09:42 AM
togaflyer togaflyer is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Southeast
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Hey Kyle, the Bailey’s glass almost fits perfect out of the box. I just had to sand down an edge a little for the final fit. Not saying the method I used looks better or anything else. It does not require doing the fiberglassing over the plexiglass. Once the windows is glued in, the joggle gets filled in with the same adhesive/sealant, and your done. Also, if a window does need to be removed, it’s simpler to remove and does not require cutting out the glass work and redoing it. Either installation methods look nice.
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  #26  
Old 08-27-2019, 09:57 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDC View Post
Also, am I the only one that is going to comment on the drapes installed in your -10. Not only that they are installed, but they look to have survived the window loss. Awesome! Looks like a very comfortable interior.
Well, since you brought it up... I was going to comment that the window may have jumped out on its own accord just to get away from the curtains...
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  #27  
Old 08-27-2019, 12:59 PM
kkmarshall kkmarshall is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Central Tx
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Builder confirmed that Weld-on was used. Sent some shards to Van's for their inspection. Leaning towards using Lord per the experience of many here and glassing over the seam on the new window as well as the remaining windows.
I like my curtains,thank you very much!😄
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329DR RV10-bought flying
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  #28  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:23 PM
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BlackhawkSP BlackhawkSP is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnson View Post
A good bond failure is a cohesive failure where the bonding agent fails leaving material on both components. This would also be the case with a poorly mixed adhesive resulting in poor strength. This applies to either a single overload event or a cyclical load.

A bad bond failure is an adhesive failure like what is shown in the photo where the adhesive has separated fairly cleanly from the substrate. This generally is caused by poor surface prep. In this case it appears that the separation is almost 100% of the area including imprinting from pinholes. There also appears to be no scuffing of the surface to prep for bonding.

A simple way to test for surface contaminates is to mist some water onto the surface. If it forms a continuous film then the surface is likely clean. If it beads up, the surface is contaminated.

Judging by the photos, poor bond prep is a likely cause.
I second the notion that poor bond prep as the root cause. There was virtually no adhesive left on the fiberglass of the cabin top, which tells me that there was minimal sanding to scuff the area to give the adhesive more "tooth" to bond to.

On another note, I wish Van's would come out with an RV-10 B version of cabin top with the joggle for the windows on the INSIDE. This would eliminate the cracking of paint that happens on the current version. Also while he's at it, redesign the cabin doors to pivot at the front, like a Cirrus, so that failure of the latch (or the pilot to latch it) would not result in the loss of the door. This would be a huge safety improvement.
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Indianapolis
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  #29  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:34 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackhawkSP View Post
On another note, I wish Van's would come out with an RV-10 B version of cabin top with the joggle for the windows on the INSIDE. This would eliminate the cracking of paint that happens on the current version. Also while he's at it, redesign the cabin doors to pivot at the front, like a Cirrus, so that failure of the latch (or the pilot to latch it) would not result in the loss of the door. This would be a huge safety improvement.
Sounds like an aftermarket opportunity for someone. Seriously.
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Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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  #30  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:38 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
Default cabin top

I like the idea of the inner joggle...the door pivot, not so much.

My biggest beef with the cabin top is the fit and finish...if they only did ONE thing, the cabin top door opening should be 3/8" narrower...then the fitting could be done per the plans instead of grinding off ALL of the flange and 25% of the door channel corner radius...
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