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  #11  
Old 08-09-2019, 08:07 AM
noelf noelf is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cary, N.C.
Posts: 1,216
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I was well into my 50's when I started my slow build -6A. Had a family, two small kids, and a somewhat supportive wife. I was an electrical design / development engineer with a large computer company and traveled for the company frequently.

My build did not interfere with the family. They came first. I am fortunate that I don't sleep much. I would get up around 2am each weekday morning and work in the basement shop until 6am. Then help with the kids, go to work and be home early evening. Weekends were for the family, but I could steal a moment or two and not cause the wife grief. The build took 13 years and 5,000 hours, not counting the time to paint.

I did, and still do, enjoy the build process. And as an engineer, I relish problems and discovering solutions. Building gave me something to do in the early morning hours when I was awake anyway.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2019, 09:42 AM
DadBod Builder DadBod Builder is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Geneva, Il
Posts: 7
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Thank you to everyone for the wise words and support. I’m currently working on getting work space ready. Heat, insulation, another work bench and more lighting. It interesting how much we spend just to start building. Thanks again everyone. My next call will be to Cleaveland Tools. Talked to Mike at OSH and that guy knows his s@it.
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2019, 10:09 AM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
Default Welcome to VAF

Dave, welcome to VAF
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Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

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"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2019, 10:32 AM
crabandy crabandy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ks
Posts: 2,188
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You?ld be crazy not to have second thoughts. I bought my tail kit mid twenties and newly married and hoping to fly by 30. 3 kiddos later and mid thirties brought the first flight, lots of obstacles along the way that sometimes halted progress for months at a time but I liked the challenge of the build.

After 5 years of flying and over 400 hours the RV is kinda part of the family, kiddo #4 bugs me weekly to go flying and the wife is starting to prefer it over the airlines.
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2019, 10:45 AM
ssturges ssturges is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 53
Default Rule #1

Rule number 1, if you want to fly buy a plane, if you want to build a plane build a plane.

I feel that for me building the plane was the largest mistake I ever made in my life. 57 years old employed high profile position engineer, a lot more money than time but no kids. I am a very capable individual with a lot of interests in life. Bought an RV9A quick build kit that had already been owned by 2 people to complete to about 60%. I had a sabbatical from work that gave me about 800 hours of time to work on the plane. Also mentored a teen to help me work on it for a summer as I worked on it.

The empennage workmanship was good by the first owner but canopy by the second was a write off plus the upper fuselage skins. Reading Vans estimates I thought it was take around 800 hours to complete the plane. I am just entering paint on the plane and have well have over 2000 hours into the project in the last 4 years. Work on it 3 to 4 nights a week for 3 to 4 hours plus a day on the weekend.

Not a show plane but the plane is very nice however, full IFR panel, BRS chute, CS prop, interior, O2?.. I will be a really nice plane when done.

Building these planes well takes skill, ability and lots of attention to detail. Don?t let anyone tell you different. The number of mistakes I found by the second builder was incredible and he was an airline A&P. If I had been retired looking for something to do this would be a different story.

My regret is how much the plane subtracted from my life to have the time to enjoy other things. As it also took so long build it subtracted from the mission of flying it.

Building is fun, frustrating and sometimes soul crushing.

If Vans really want to expand their market they need to really focus improving manufacturability and getting the build time to realistic 500 hours. I took that quick build class from Synergy Air as they were building 12?s, Wally the owner had a great saying ?The problem with Vans is they assume your time is free?

Simple things like build all those brackets and parts and so on from raw stock takes a lot of time, Hard to see why Vans could not offer an option were you just buy all that stuff CNCed. Seem like they are getting there with the newer kits, but not very fast. Granted there are people out there that think pre-punched holes are cheating.
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2019, 11:04 AM
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bkervaski bkervaski is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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Quote:
If Vans really want to expand their market they need to really focus improving manufacturability and getting the build time to realistic 500 hours. I took that quick build class from Synergy Air as they were building 12’s, Wally the owner had a great saying “The problem with Vans is they assume your time is free”

Simple things like build all those brackets and parts and so on from raw stock takes a lot of time, Hard to see why Vans could not offer an option were you just buy all that stuff CNCed. Seem like they are getting there with the newer kits, but not very fast. Granted there are people out there that think pre-punched holes are cheating.
The problem I think is that 51% rule ...
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2019, 11:04 AM
Discus2b Discus2b is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Willis Gliderport
Posts: 185
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Not touched on is the psychological ups and downs. You have to be totally comfortable with making mistakes, some that could be costly. Little kids and wife can?t see the build turning you into a angry father/husband or they will come to hate the plane. Want nothing to do with it.
Boeing makes mistakes, daddy, or wife or kids will too.
Also, build for yourself and allow them to be drawn in. Then, not only will you be a builder but a teacher as well.
Our ideal dream seldom happens. Expect others to have different peaks and valleys of interest and not be disappointed theirs do not match yours.
Making request for help and time works better than making demands,
?Hon, when?s a good time we can work together??.

If your kids are 10 or younger, put a high latch on the workshop to guard the shop. Little ones love daddy?s tools and will make perfect dents and holes where you don?t want one. Build the test kit/toolbox together.

Finally, when I make a mistake I always say in my best Australian accent
?Bloody Roo, a hellava fine croc **** job.? Then move on.
Do not allow the build to make you unhappy.
Good luck!

R
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2019, 11:05 AM
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rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssturges View Post
If Vans really want to expand their market they need to really focus improving manufacturability and getting the build time to realistic 500 hours. I took that quick build class from Synergy Air as they were building 12?s, Wally the owner had a great saying ?The problem with Vans is they assume your time is free?
Many factors at play. Want to save time and have a faster build? You'll pay for it in dollars and/or a simpler (read: heavier) structure, at least in metal.

Van's could probably improve the designs from a manufacturability standpoint but then they'd run the risk of pricing themselves out of a market. Not everyone has wads of cash to drop all at once on a build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssturges View Post
Simple things like build all those brackets and parts and so on from raw stock takes a lot of time, Hard to see why Vans could not offer an option were you just buy all that stuff CNCed. Seem like they are getting there with the newer kits, but not very fast. Granted there are people out there that think pre-punched holes are cheating.
Some of that is the 51% rule and calculation of work done as scored by the FAA. This calculation is very heavily weighted towards building the structure over systems and finishing, and fabrication of a certain proportion of parts from raw stock helps get to that 51% number. At least it's cutting and drilling parts from extrusion and not cutting and forming 20 identical ribs or something.

The resources are already out there to help get your build time down if you have the cash to pay for them. Quickbuild kits, builder's assist programs, prewired panels, complete interiors, and now supplied harnesses are all out there.
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2019, 01:28 PM
Andrew Anunson Andrew Anunson is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pound, VA
Posts: 182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DadBod Builder View Post
a.) so now I want to build but with my wife and kids.
b.) I know that in the end getting to fly around with my family is fun for me but what if they want nothing to do with it?
c.) I don?t want to fail but family comes first.
d.) I want to do this with them, not against them. I don?t want to be selfish with my time or money. Money in a plane takes away from other buckets of money.
e.) That said, I don?t want to wait until I?m 60 and then not have ?time? with my family in the plane.

Spend time with your wife and your kids. Go on vacations, go to school events, go out to eat, go on picnics.... take her on dates and stay up late with her. Do ALL the stuff you are going to do with your family because its fun and we are all happier spending time with the ones we love.

But build the plane for YOU. There is usually spare time. Let family and friends help if they want to... but don't expect them to want to. Its YOUR dream... most likely not theirs. If you are happy because you build a plane in the off time, then every one else will be happier too. We all need time to do things we want to do.... so if you want to build a plane, well then get started. Spend your fair share of money on the project.... I am certain that my family could have a nicer X or a nicer Y if I wasn't building a plane... but who cares? We all get stuff we don't need.... but just cause you are Dad doesn't mean you shouldn't get to spend some too.

That being said.... If you can't afford it, then build something less expensive. Don't start building a real airplane if its going to cause financial stress.... because that will make your family hate the project.
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  #20  
Old 08-09-2019, 01:34 PM
ssturges ssturges is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartingt View Post
Many factors at play. Want to save time and have a faster build? You'll pay for it in dollars and/or a simpler (read: heavier) structure, at least in metal.

Van's could probably improve the designs from a manufacturability standpoint but then they'd run the risk of pricing themselves out of a market. Not everyone has wads of cash to drop all at once on a build.


Some of that is the 51% rule and calculation of work done as scored by the FAA. This calculation is very heavily weighted towards building the structure over systems and finishing, and fabrication of a certain proportion of parts from raw stock helps get to that 51% number. At least it's cutting and drilling parts from extrusion and not cutting and forming 20 identical ribs or something.

The resources are already out there to help get your build time down if you have the cash to pay for them. Quickbuild kits, builder's assist programs, prewired panels, complete interiors, and now supplied harnesses are all out there.
Fabricate Brackets and Fittings is one line item in AC 20-27 for both wings and Fuselage. So easy to make this work, have the part CNCed and drilled, the user just drills to final size, just like you do on all the rest of metal on the plane. Lots of ways to make the rules work. Clearly there are two weeks to taxi out there that take this concept to extreme. Look at how Cub Crafters makes this work. The thing is end the end you get quality, a safer product in less time at a higher cost but a bigger market size. If your old school just buy the slow build. I would have gladly paid 3K for the partial machined parts.

The cost of the quick build air-frame is less than 25% of the total cost for my RV9A yet it ate almost all the time.

Like it said it would be nice to just pick your place on the cost vs. time curve other than just the quick build option. How many people in the know what pick a 7 over a 14 given the cost? I think most would pick the 14. It would be interesting to see the sales numbers.
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