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07-10-2019, 03:36 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ridgeland, SC
Posts: 2,589
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David---I dont know Steve or his abilities, but Raymo and I do know Ray, and yes he's built quite a few experimentals as well as restored several GA's and warbirds. I still think he has more than 1000 hours in the build and the OP said no more than that. Thats why I said it might not be the plane for him.
But Rays F4 does fly well!
Tom
__________________
Tom Swearengen, TS Flightlines LLC, AS Flightlines
Joint Venture with Aircraft Specialty
Teflon Hose Assemblies for Experimentals
Proud Vendor for RV1, Donator to VAF
RV7 Tail Kit Completed, Fuse started-Pay as I go Plan
Ridgeland, SC
www.tsflightlines.com, www.asflightlines.com
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07-10-2019, 03:47 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymo
The Raider and Rocket kits are not pre-punched, as are the other newer Vans designs. Ray built his very quickly but he is retired, is an old A&P with tons of experience (also built a RV-7 and rebuilt his Luscomb). I don't know what he has in his F-4 Raider but he did mention over 15k just in the prop and another 2k in the spinner.
You can find first run engines and rebuild it yourself with some knowledgeable assistance. Spend the extra money on Lycon upgrades to the engine for increased HP out of a 180 HP plant.
Do what I did: Go for a ride in an -8 and you'll be sold.
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Yeah, I had read about the lack of pre-punched parts, and that's why I was thinking I'd try to enlist the help of someone like Loyd Remus if that still lets me comply with the 51% rule. However, it doesn't sound like many people are suggesting that I go that path. I'd be curious to hear why.
That seems like an awful lot for a prop and spinner! I have a feeling that I could get away with less...
Can you please expand on "first run" engines? Sounds like something I'd be very interested in, but to be honest I've never heard that term before. I'll definitely have a look at Lycon. I've read about them before but haven't checked them out in at least a couple years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule
The F-4 is definitely buildable by a newbie. It'll take more time than a prepunched or quickbuild kit, for sure, but you can do it. See https://www.f1aircraft.com/. The project is basically roughly about as complex as an RV-4, and there are some parts available.
Dave
RV-3B, another of those non-prepunched slow-build kit, now on the fuselage.
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Happy to hear that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TS Flightlines
David---I dont know Steve or his abilities, but Raymo and I do know Ray, and yes he's built quite a few experimentals as well as restored several GA's and warbirds. I still think he has more than 1000 hours in the build and the OP said no more than that. Thats why I said it might not be the plane for him.
But Rays F4 does fly well!
Tom
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I don't know if my engineering degree counts for much in terms of actually building something, but I've spent almost 3 years wrenching on Blackhawks in the Army. Granted, I don't do any sheet metal work, but I think that if I found a partially completed RV8 kit and had someone assemble the fuselage for me, I'd probably be in my element for the FWF and finishing kit.
Steve
Last edited by s11033 : 07-10-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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07-10-2019, 04:06 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Welcome to VAF
Steve, welcome aboard the good ship VAF 
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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07-10-2019, 04:11 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
Steve, welcome aboard the good ship VAF 
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Thanks Mike!
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07-10-2019, 04:41 PM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s11033
.... I was thinking I'd try to enlist the help of someone like Loyd Remus if that still lets me comply with the 51% rule. However, it doesn't sound like many people are suggesting that I go that path. I'd be curious to hear why.
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The essence of the 51% rule is that 51% of the tasks specified in the NKET checklist (there are about 185 points on that FAA document) have to be completed by amateurs for the purpose of "education and entertainment"... not for commercial purposes, or to make money. You have to attest to that fact when you sign the document for getting the airplane inspected for an airworthiness certificate - under penalty of perjury. That doesn't seem to bother a lot of folks who pay to have airplanes built for them - that's a judgement call you have to make, but if you err on the perjury side, its probably best not to talk about it on the internet...the FAA has LOTS of folks who read VAF (because they are happy RV owners - but why push them?).
So how can you get in trouble with this? If you pay someone else to build too many of the components, then you are outside of the 51% rule. of course, many folks (me included) buy quick build kits with much of the fabrication and assembly complete - including a fuselage (to a rough state). The thing is that the manufacturer has gone over the NKET checklist carefully with the FAA and completed JUST ENOUGH to stay within the rules. What you're suggesting is to "roll your own" quick build, and you can do this legally if you document what you have done on the NKET checklist. Some folks have done this, and licensed their airplane with the FAA's blessing and a clear conscience.
So yeah, a long explanation for a touchy subject - one that you can navigate successfully if you go in knowing the process and looking for a way to do it legally.
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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07-10-2019, 04:58 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
The essence of the 51% rule is that 51% of the tasks specified in the NKET checklist (there are about 185 points on that FAA document) have to be completed by amateurs for the purpose of "education and entertainment"... not for commercial purposes, or to make money. You have to attest to that fact when you sign the document for getting the airplane inspected for an airworthiness certificate - under penalty of perjury. That doesn't seem to bother a lot of folks who pay to have airplanes built for them - that's a judgement call you have to make, but if you err on the perjury side, its probably best not to talk about it on the internet...the FAA has LOTS of folks who read VAF (because they are happy RV owners - but why push them?).
So how can you get in trouble with this? If you pay someone else to build too many of the components, then you are outside of the 51% rule. of course, many folks (me included) buy quick build kits with much of the fabrication and assembly complete - including a fuselage (to a rough state). The thing is that the manufacturer has gone over the NKET checklist carefully with the FAA and completed JUST ENOUGH to stay within the rules. What you're suggesting is to "roll your own" quick build, and you can do this legally if you document what you have done on the NKET checklist. Some folks have done this, and licensed their airplane with the FAA's blessing and a clear conscience.
So yeah, a long explanation for a touchy subject - one that you can navigate successfully if you go in knowing the process and looking for a way to do it legally.
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Hi Paul,
Thanks a lot for your detailed reply. I certainly want to stay within both the letter and the spirit of the law. As you mentioned in your last paragraph, what I really seek to do is obtain a QB kit for this product that doesn't really have one yet. The wings and empennage will be entirely amateur built, whether I acquire the kit from another builder or assemble it all myself. The finishing kit, FWF, panel, and rigging will be done by me as well. All I want to avoid is the tedious task of assembling the non-punched fuselage kit.
Would one of these shops be able to give me guidance on what they can and can't do to stay within the rules? Is there somewhere I can find the checklist? I've found the list of approved kits, but not the individual checklist items.
Thanks again!
Steve
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07-10-2019, 05:51 PM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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Here’s the FAA job-aid...all 83 pages of it! Sounds long (and it is), but it is very complete and has lots of examples.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/...st_job_aid.pdf
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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07-10-2019, 05:58 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
51% of the tasks specified in the NKET checklist (there are about 185 points on that FAA document) have to be completed by amateurs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s11033
The wings and empennage will be entirely amateur built, whether I acquire the kit from another builder or assemble it all myself. The finishing kit, FWF, panel, and rigging will be done by me as well. All I want to avoid is the tedious task of assembling the non-punched fuselage kit.
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Note that the 51% is based on Tasks, and not on total labor or hours.
Kinda strange when you first look at it, but many folks get caught up in thinking the 51% is of the total labor.
Paul is right on, take it to the bank.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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07-10-2019, 06:28 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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I noticed no one answered your ?first run? question. This term refers to a used engine that has never been overhauled, e.g., most likely has about 2000 hr or less total time on it, and is therefore a likely candidate for an overhaul with no surprises, e.g., crankshaft re-useable, crankcase re-useable, etc.
Lycon has a reputation of doing excellent work - and their backlog and prices reflect that.
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07-10-2019, 06:31 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 153
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Why not consider buying ....
You sound a lot like my younger self (by 35-40 years). If I had $80k to work with, here?s what I wish I had done (in today?s world).
1). Buy a flying RV8 or a 4 if you like the styling better (or even a Rocket if you can find one in your budget)
2). Fly a lot ? learn a lot
3). Get on with the rest of your life ? marry that girl, have those kids
4). In 15-20 years you?ll have (if all goes well):
A great family life
A lot of experience flying and maintaining and modifying and rebuilding a safe, high performance sport plane. Your wrenching skills will come in handy!
5). If you?ve saved aggressively, retire early and build a (30 year newer) dream machine.
Sorry to sound preachy. Building, especially a non-prepunched kit, is a big commitment (for you and the others in your life). Unless you (and they) like building as much (or more) than flying ... buy first. When your family and career are in a position to support your build ? go build that (future) dream machine.
This is advice to *my* younger self. Please ignore if it doesn?t apply to you.
Peter
__________________
Vans RV6 flying
SZD 48-2 flying
2018, 19, 20 Dues paid
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