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05-04-2019, 09:42 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: KBVY Massachusetts
Posts: 1,100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer
Sorry, no. The reg says you are required to "Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft..."
There's a difference, legally 
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Yes agreed, and then the conversation moved to whether or not saying "RV" was good enough....whether or not RV is SUFFICIENT to convey "experimental". In my opinion it is not.
It is a proven fact that in some airports, and for some pilots, it is not. This is an established fact beyond debate.
Unless you know an airport knows about RV's - and unless you know that the pilots you are dealing with in that airspace and at that moment - knows about RV's, you are taking a chance.
So there you MAY have satisfied the requirements. Or you may not have.
There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance that you have not satisfied the requirement when you use the word "experimental". You have definitely conveyed the "experimental nature" without question.
From there we got into opinion and acceptable risk factors.
That's pretty much when I tuned out. I know what risk I'm willing to accept - as little as practical. And the " pain" of using the word "experimental" is so infinitesimal that to avoid it strikes me as silly and there's no good reason to not use it. I have seen no rational argument against using the word "experimental". It costs almost nothing to use the word. I have to wonder if some people defend against its use because they don't want to admit they may have been taking unnecessary risks. But I really I don't know
I see no harm in saying "Experimental RV November 12345.....", as adding the "RV" is helpful, MIGHT provide useful info and doesn't take up much extra time on the frequency.
I also know that I specifically asked my home airport's Tower Team (2 teams because one whole set retired to be replaced by new folks), and they BOTH said they Want. To. Hear. the word "experimental". So that's the second reason I use it.
So that's my choice. Everyone does what they think is best.
If people want to continue to debate the issue have at it. I'm pretty much done with it:
I've listened to both sides, identified the silly arguments, and have made my choices.
__________________
Flying RV-8 N880BC
2019 Dues - happily paid.
Last edited by Saville : 05-04-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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05-04-2019, 01:01 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 227
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Agreed ✅✅✅
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20 dues paid member since 2018
RV6A
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05-04-2019, 04:40 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Midland, mi
Posts: 962
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Maybe I missed this idea in this long thread, but does any one announce themselves with:
"Vans RV-XX tail number"
or
"Van's XX tail number"
Then isn't "Van's" equivalent to saying "experimental", except for the 12 (which may be professionally built).
Van's is the make, while RV-xx is the model. Like Cessna Skyhawk (172). With that said, why doesn't Van's come up with cool names for each model. A wait I know, for the same reason that a Porsche only has to be identified as a 911 or a 944.
__________________
Ken Stockman
Midland, MI
EAA Chapter 1093 member
FaceBook Page: Ken's RV-14
RV-14a (serial number 140073)
N73XP
Plane at hangar and the wings ON.
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05-04-2019, 05:37 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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"Vans" is only the manufacturer of a very small number of the 10,000+ Airplanes identified as RV's
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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05-04-2019, 06:37 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockmanreef
Then isn't "Van's" equivalent to saying "experimental", except for the 12 (which may be professionally built).
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No. 
__________________
Galin
CP-ASEL-AMEL-IR
FCC Radiotelephone (PG) with Radar Endorsement
2020 Donation made
www.PuertoRicoFlyer.com
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05-05-2019, 03:25 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder
"Vans" is only the manufacturer of a very small number of the 10,000+ Airplanes identified as RV's
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That's not true according to the FAA order. Van is the recognized manufacturer, and every one of the Van's Aircraft from rv-3 to rv-14 is listed in this official document. Orders and Notices are mandatory for FAA internal use. There are no other VAN aircraft manufacturers according to FAA. There' are several thousand RVs flying, which far exceeds many certified models. Not sure what the point is, but in the world of experimental aircraft Van's models are one of the most prolific and well-known. In the total GA population Van's Aircraft, a round over 40 years, and are not a minority by any stretch.
Some say RVx is not sufficient to indicate your experimental nature, which is an opinion. If you ask an FAA inspector you will likely get different opinions. If you just say RVx would you ever get a violation or cause a safety issue? In my opinion no. However there's no controversy if you just say experimental.
If you say "Experimental RVx N#...." you are covered. This has the added benefit of letting those who do know what an RV is know what type you are. This saves time from ATC having to come back and ask you what type of aircraft you are.
By the way when I say ATC I mean Tower. This requirement to indicate your experimental nature only applies to initial communication with airport control Towers. Enroute you don't have to say it at all.
__________________
George
Raleigh, NC Area
RV-4, RV-7, ATP, CFII, MEI, 737/757/767
2020 Dues Paid
Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 05-05-2019 at 03:37 AM.
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05-05-2019, 08:31 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
That's not true according to the FAA order. Van is the recognized manufacturer, and every one of the Van's Aircraft from rv-3 to rv-14 is listed in this official document. Orders and Notices are mandatory for FAA internal use.
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As you point out, FAA orders and documents are mandatory for FAA internal use ONLY. They do not apply to anyone else and do not override the FAR's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saville
It was settled - pages and pages ago. You are required to use the word "experimental" on your first call-up. After that it's not required.
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EXACTLY, but some people insist on justifying what they do no matter what the reality is. 
__________________
Galin
CP-ASEL-AMEL-IR
FCC Radiotelephone (PG) with Radar Endorsement
2020 Donation made
www.PuertoRicoFlyer.com
Last edited by GalinHdz : 05-05-2019 at 01:03 PM.
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05-05-2019, 08:49 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalinHdz
As you point out, FAA orders and documents are mandatory for FAA internal use ONLY. They do not apply to anyone else and do not override the FAR's.
EXACTLY, but some people insist on justifying what they do no matter what the reality is. 
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Mandatory for FAA personel. They are the boss of you. Ha ha. You are free to ignore the fact that the FAA recognizes the Van's RV types as they do a Boeing 747. It is useful to know. If you file a flight plan, it is a recognized (by FAA) make/model type along with its description 1P/S, which is 1 engine, piston, small and wake turb index F ICAO weight: Light. This is what ATC has access to do their job. Note: FAA ATC considers "Van's" as manufacture not builder for ATC purposes. For type designation (model) omit hyphen.
Again say experimental. That is perfect. If Tower comes back say what type, what will you say? Vans' RVx. If they say what's that? Small, light, single piston engine low wing 2 place airplane I guess. If tower say oh a Grumman Yankee.. land at another Airport.
Here is Order 7360.1D.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...tors_FINAL.pdf
What is an Order?
ANSWER:*FAA Orders*are published by the*FAA for*FAA*personnel. These documents outline procedures for performing their job functions. The acronym JO is used in the*FAA*Air Traffic Control*order numbering system and stands for Job*Order.
__________________
George
Raleigh, NC Area
RV-4, RV-7, ATP, CFII, MEI, 737/757/767
2020 Dues Paid
Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 05-05-2019 at 10:18 AM.
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05-05-2019, 11:59 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
Mandatory for FAA personel. They are the boss of you. Ha ha.
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Just out of curiosity, how long have you been employed by the FAA? Based on your post(s) I think I know the answer. FWIW I was a controller for 22yrs so I know that they are nobody's boss and these orders are not mandatory for anybody outside the FAA, no matter what you want to think. But the FAR's apply to everyone so I follow them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
Again say experimental. That is perfect. If Tower comes back say what type, what will you say? Vans' RVx. If they say what's that? Small, light, single piston engine low wing 2 place airplane I guess. If tower say oh a Grumman Yankee.. land at another Airport. 
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See this thread's post #115 for what I do when ATC asks me about my experimental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
What is an Order?
ANSWER:*FAA Orders*are published by the*FAA for*FAA*personnel. These documents outline procedures for performing their job functions. The acronym JO is used in the*FAA*Air Traffic Control*order numbering system and stands for Job*Order.
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There, I highlighted your own post for you to understand.

__________________
Galin
CP-ASEL-AMEL-IR
FCC Radiotelephone (PG) with Radar Endorsement
2020 Donation made
www.PuertoRicoFlyer.com
Last edited by GalinHdz : 05-09-2019 at 08:59 AM.
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05-05-2019, 02:27 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Fort Worth area
Posts: 97
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Clarification sometimes isn't enough
In my early lifetime I was initiating a VFR landing clearance into Dallas Love Field by stating "Love tower, Swift 3959K over Bonham (visual reporting point) for landing". Tower controller asked for aircraft type. I replied "Globe GC1-B".
Tower controller after a few minutes: "Cleared to land RWY 13L".
About 2 miles from touchdown the controller advised me my nose gear did not appear to be down...
__________________
RV-8 N88GK Sold
RV-9A Slider, N188GK Project, now flying, O-320-B1A, Catto 3 Blade NLE, G3X Touch System
Restored Taylorcraft BC12-65
Exempt but proud contributor
Jerry Kinman, VAF 170
Keller, TX (T67)
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