A How To Guide for Wrecking Your Nose Wheel - Page 7

agirard7a · #61 03-25-2019, 02:15 PM

Here is my 2 cents. When I had trouble landing my Rv-3, I called my transition trainer for advice. This advise has worked also in my Rv-9. He asked what my stall airspeed was flaps extended. In the 9 it’s about 48 mph. Obviously this will vary depending on weight configuration. Multiply by 1.3 or 1.2 if you need to come in short or 60mph for short landings 65mph normal. (Rounded up)

Then he told me to go up to altitude and practice flying around at 60 and 65 flaps extended and see how much throttle was needed to maintain altitude and zero sink rate. I needed roughly 2300-2400 rpm. You need to know this, it’s good practice. He proceeded to tell me that the smoothest greased landings happen when you touch down close to to a zero sink rate. You need forward speed and energy to accomplish this to minimize the down force vector to minimize sink.

Here is what I did to practice the grease landings. Set up on a longer approach for practice. Pitch the nose for 65-70 mph airspeed. (1.3+ Vso)

Keep that airspeed and use the power on or off to control the decent. Maintain the forward energy over the numbers. Add power to control decent and let the plane slowly settle to the runway slowing forward speed tor 55-60 close to the runway. With forward energy and a minimal decent vector you will be greasing them on. After you do this for a bit, start using altitude and nose down airspeed for your forward energy instead of power and target the same airspeed coming over the numbers. If you are not using power you need to be gliding close to the runway as your down vector will be increasing as your forward energy decreases. Add a touch of power to decrease your decent and you will grease it on.

In sum, the 9 stalls at a slower speed and the longer wing in ground effect will make you float longer. You need to slow it down. 70 kts is way to fast over the numbers for the 9. Just keep in mind when you slow down to 60 mph and less, you need to arrest the sink and keep the forward energy going. The key is to be holding off as close to the runway as possible as you slowly dissipate forward energy.

snopercod · #62 03-25-2019, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agirard7a

Keep that airspeed and use the power on or off to control the decent. Maintain the forward energy over the numbers. Add power to control decent and let the plane slowly settle to the runway slowing forward speed tor 55-60 close to the runway. With forward energy and a minimal decent vector you will be greasing them on.

Boy, that is such good advice. I am so sick of the "experts" telling me that I have to land in a nose-high attitude as if my hot little plane were a C-172. No, I make 3-point landings all the time. What you said is exactly how I have landed my plane successfully over 500 times. Having a tail-cam has really improved my landing technique. Except for the turbulence, this is a typical landing for me. I imaging an RV-9 landing is similar:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5kj6n1xzsv...nding.mp4?dl=0

agirard7a · #63 03-25-2019, 04:42 PM

Yes however, I was trying to explain my technique for energy management regardless of a nose or tail wheel. I think if I had a nose wheel on my 9, I would try and land in a nose high attitude touching on the mains first while minimizing the sink as much as possible at touch down. Keeping the stick back and nose off as long as possible. We all know the nose wheels are not so robust on the RVs.

rocketman1988 · #64 03-25-2019, 05:46 PM

Landing on the nose gear in ANY tricycle configuration aircraft is not recommended...

Three point landings in a taildragger is great; in a trike, not so much...

snopercod · #65 03-25-2019, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketman1988

Three point landings in a taildragger is great; in a trike, not so much...

Why not? I've done many hundreds of three point "greaser" landings in my Lancair with no problems. I think this is an old wives tale.

rocketman1988 · #66 03-25-2019, 07:11 PM

Well, for one thing, typically the design loads are smaller for the nose gear. Why?...because the main gear is supposed to take a majority of the landing loads. This requires a lighter structure as the nose wheel is typically flown to the ground once the mains are down. Take a look at the difference in a -10 main landing gear leg versus the nose gear leg...

Second, there can be controllability issues if the nose wheel comes down first..."wheelbarrow" comes to mind, as well as the dreaded PIO...

Third, for most people, it is considered poor form...

Can it be done safely? Looks like it based on your experience...at least until something goes wrong...

But hey, if it works for you, great. It is just something in 35+ years of instruction, I wouldn't recommend to my students...

rvbuilder2002 · #67 03-25-2019, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snopercod

Why not? I've done many hundreds of three point "greaser" landings in my Lancair with no problems. I think this is an old wives tale.

I am not even sure where to start with an answer to that.

Lets just leave it with this.... Since this is forums for RV's, hopefully no one will take landing 3 point in an "A" model as good advice.

tjo · #68 03-25-2019, 10:20 PM

Keep in mind that you need some margin between stall speed and approach speed. That said, that is why 1.3 times stall is the target speed, the margin is built in to this target. If you are over 1.3, you are too fast. That means over the fence in a 9 at 65 mph, 57 kts. I don’t have mine done yet (for full disclosure), but; When I had around 200 hours I was frustrated with my 172 and 150 landings. I went back to basics, slowed way down, and all was well. Just recently I took a work colleague for a ride and he said my landings were smoother than he thought was possible! Yeah it wasn’t that good, but it was an ego boost none the less...

Tim

snopercod · #69 03-26-2019, 05:19 AM

"...the main gear is supposed to take a majority of the landing loads." Yes, that's true, but let me ask you. "What happens when you stall the plane?" Answer: The nose drops. It just never seemed smart to do a full-stall landing with a high pitch attitude and have the nose wheel slam down on the tarmac. Wouldn't it be easier on the nose gear structure to assume a slightly nose high attitude 6" above the runway then let the plane settle gently down with no shock loads at all?

[quote=rocketman1988;1334464]... there can be controllability issues if the nose wheel comes down first...[quote]Well of course, but I'm not talking about landing nose first. That would be crazy. In five years of flying my plane, I've only had one case of imminent PIO. A gust of wind caused me to drop in before I was ready and I bounced with a nose high attitude like the OP described. I immediately added power (like the OP did), stabilized, then eased the power back out and settled down. (I had plenty of runway).

Apparently, the landing gear on my Lancair is different enough from the RV gear that I can make "level" landings with no problem. I don't have those long, springy gear legs like the RVs. Oleo strut on the nose with 2.5" of travel, and oleo shock absorbers on the mains with about the same travel. Although our planes have different characteristics, I think we can all learn something from each other.

rv6ejguy · #70 03-26-2019, 06:17 AM

Approach speed has little to do with your actual landings, just how much runway you use up as excessive speed bleeds off in ground effect where you better already have proper attitude established if you want smooth touchdowns.

I've done hundreds of approaches at anywhere between 60 and 85 knots with full flap, half flap and no flap with greasers resulting in the end. Obviously if you cross the numbers at 85 knots, you're going to float a long ways as the aircraft wants to just keep flying. If you try forcing the thing down on the runway at excessive speed, that's where you'll have trouble due to the level attitude which means the nose gear will probably touch first.

I find with full flap, leaving a trickle of power on improves the arrival at touchdown if you misjudge the roundout.

Get that nose up, especially in a 9A with the long nose gear, at about 5 feet and just hold it there until you touch down. I've found RVs are the easiest airplanes I've ever flown to land consistently well, once you establish the proper attitude at touchdown.