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  #21  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:18 AM
Tomcat RV4 Tomcat RV4 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jacksonville,Fl. 32246
Posts: 281
Default 506DC

Iwent thru same scene, little different route, suby 2.5 with SDS For ignition, real rocket ship, had about $30k , got rid of , and now building Zenith 701,to me the
education and FRIENDS made along way are ireplacable ! Tom
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Tomcat RV4
RV4 gone to RV heaven !building Zenith 701
dues paid and worth every penny
Life is uncertain -Eat desert first !
U F O Member since Dec 2017
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  #22  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:02 AM
burgessbuilderMO13 burgessbuilderMO13 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Perth ont
Posts: 74
Smile Post 12, fabric work query

To answer your question about how hard can it be to apply fabric, it?s not.
Having built a number of RV?s, and tube/fabric aircraft, I am currently building a W10 Tailwind.
Quite honestly I can?t wait to get at the fabric portion of the build.
The almost instant transformation from bare frame to ?that?s a plane? is truly satisfying.
The hard part is slowing down to take the time do do the best possible work.
The water based finishes are the least toxic, both you and your pets will benefit from that.
Minimal tool requirements, maximum results.
Dale
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  #23  
Old 02-27-2019, 12:42 PM
smokyray's Avatar
smokyray smokyray is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TX32
Posts: 1,968
Default Eight is enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Task View Post
Im just wondering what an average RV8 sells for with basic vfr panel and io-360?
Hey Jon,
Thread hijack notwithstanding, here's a long answer to your short question. I built my RV4 way back when when Dinosaurs roamed the taxiways and there were three relatively basic RV kits available (RV3,4,6). Years later when the Eight was introduced by Van, it was purportedly based on all the improvements us Jurassic RV4 builders had mentioned over the years. One of the major improvements was the RV8 kit which was much further refined in comparison with previous offerings. Compared with my 1989 RV4 kit it was downright advanced. CNC cut pre-punched skins, extruded spar, QB kit availability, bigger, better etc etc...
When the first ones started hitting the market the prices were much higher in comparison to the previous RV's, in fact nearly twice than a comparably equipped RV4. Having performed numerous RV8 pre-purchase inspections, deliveries and test flights my take was "it's twice the price but not twice the airplane."

So, back to your question. Fair market value of a decent basic RV8? F-16 Fighter Weapons School answer: It depends... Prices vary based on engine/prop, avionics, build quality and age.
$69K would be a good price for a 5-10 yr old (0-360/VFR, FP prop) example.

Some good questions...
1. Will you fly 100 hours per year?
2. What is your flight experience?
3. Why the RV-___?
4. What is your annual "airplane" budget?

Honestly, the RV4 is much more bang for your buck if you're buying.
If you are taller than 6', the Four gets "cozy" up front but I have RV4 customers over 6'4" we were able to accommodate.
If you just have to have an Eight, figure 25%-40% more cost, even with identical engine/prop. Yes, the Eight has more room, a forward baggage, advanced design (landing gear, canopy, fuselage) but doesn't fly one iota better than the RV4 IMHO.
Now, if you're building, the Eight is a great kit, improving every year and lots of corporate knowledge out there for assistance plus the QB option for the time challenged.

Your call, but I know what I would buy...
V/R
Smokey

Last edited by smokyray : 02-27-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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  #24  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:36 PM
Spinnetti Spinnetti is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Frisco
Posts: 6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokyray View Post
Hey Jon,
Thread hijack notwithstanding, here's a long answer to your short question. I built my RV4 way back when when Dinosaurs roamed the taxiways and there were three relatively basic RV kits available (RV3,4,6). Years later when the Eight was introduced by Van, it was purportedly based on all the improvements us Jurassic RV4 builders had mentioned over the years. One of the major improvements was the RV8 kit which was much further refined in comparison with previous offerings. Compared with my 1989 RV4 kit it was downright advanced. CNC cut pre-punched skins, extruded spar, QB kit availability, bigger, better etc etc...
When the first ones started hitting the market the prices were much higher in comparison to the previous RV's, in fact nearly twice than a comparably equipped RV4. Having performed numerous RV8 pre-purchase inspections, deliveries and test flights my take was "it's twice the price but not twice the airplane."

So, back to your question. Fair market value of a decent basic RV8? F-16 Fighter Weapons School answer: It depends... Prices vary based on engine/prop, avionics, build quality and age.
$69K would be a good price for a 5-10 yr old (0-360/VFR, FP prop) example.

Some good questions...
1. Will you fly 100 hours per year?
2. What is your flight experience?
3. Why the RV-___?
4. What is your annual "airplane" budget?

Honestly, the RV4 is much more bang for your buck if you're buying.
If you are taller than 6', the Four gets "cozy" up front but I have RV4 customers over 6'4" we were able to accommodate.
If you just have to have an Eight, figure 25%-40% more cost, even with identical engine/prop. Yes, the Eight has more room, a forward baggage, advanced design (landing gear, canopy, fuselage) but doesn't fly one iota better than the RV4 IMHO.
Now, if you're building, the Eight is a great kit, improving every year and lots of corporate knowledge out there for assistance plus the QB option for the time challenged.

Your call, but I know what I would buy...
V/R
Smokey

Maybe dumb question, but was is the 8 25-40% more? Airframe is not much more, given same prop and engine, what are the big factors?
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  #25  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:44 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 2,030
Default

Jon,
Dollar for dollar, you?re better off buying vs building if you want to fly. Building is a rewarding endeavor, but time is a consideration. My first RV (RV6) took me 5 years of concentrated building, with several changes along the way. My second RV (RV8) took 2 years, mostly slow build kit. My latest RV8 took me 13 months (QB). This last one is less than one year old and cost $125K - that?s for everything - trips to Home Depot for paint, everything - and that is my out of pocket cost. I have a beautiful RV8 with a state of the art G3X IFR panel, and awesome GLO paint job that is probably worth $135K, but it took me 13 months of 40+ hour work weeks (I?m retired, and I?m an experienced builder).

If you buy, you should be able to select the engine/prop combination you want, but when it comes to paint, interior, and instrument panel choices, you may have to either go with what is available, or upgrade those things to your liking. That is what your 1800 hours of labor gets you - a brand new airplane with avionics, interior, paint, and engine combination you want for yourself. Is that worth it??? Many of us, obviously, think it is, but it is definitely not for everyone, and you can get a fine airplane with almost what you want a little cheaper, and you dont have to build it.

If you are looking for a good flyer, I think you should expect to pay about $80K for a good VFR RV8 with low time, a nice paint job, and decent VFR EFIS panel, and $95 - $115 for a good IFR airplane with low time (500 - 1000 hrs), and a good paint job. If it?s new, with state of the art IFR avionics, cool paint job and interior, expect to pay $125K - $145K.

This is from research I have been doing for a friend, getting ready to sell his RV8, and trying to determine what it is worth. Ultimately, price is determined by demand and availability, and in this market, availability is the greatest restriction. Especially if the buyer is choosey.
__________________
SH
RV6/2001 built/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
RV8/2018 built/Sold(sadly)
RV4/bought 2019 Flying
RV6/Used kit purchased 2021 building
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
JAN2021
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  #26  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:49 PM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,389
Default

I have been watching and looking in the 8 and Rocket market. Your prices seem spot on.
G
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  #27  
Old 02-27-2019, 08:15 PM
Pilot135pd's Avatar
Pilot135pd Pilot135pd is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Vaca Moo Airport - TA37 in East TEXAS
Posts: 1,505
Default

Why I bought my RV-8 versus building one :

I wanted to build to keep costs down, learn more about the plane, and be able to do my own condition inspections.

After looking at various kits I found the new Ran’s S-21 to be as close to just-put-it-together than any other kit but I wasn’t as convinced in the performance for what I wanted. I also was more inclined with low wing since all of my previous planes have been low wing except a Citabria and recently a 180hp T41a (Cessna 172H).

So in my search I came across the RV-4 and RV-8. After seeing that the -8 is the gold seal regarding comfort since it’s bigger than the -4, I then had to either build or buy used.

I realized after seeing many posts in the Van’s Builders page that the RV is more of a construction kit than a put-parts-together kit.

After spending the last 2-1/2 years restoring the 180hp T41a (Cessna 172H) I knew how much work it would be to upgrade a used plane so I started trying to figure it how much I should spend on a used one versus a kit. After seeing what was out there and the prices varying from $60k to $160k I knew I had to really think this through.

So I went back to find out how much a kit with all the options I wanted (minimum it must have EFIS, EMS, Autopilot, nice paint scheme). I realized that I would end up spending around $100k plus I wouldn’t be able to fly for a few years while I built it.

So knowing my budget was $100k I set out to see what I could buy with $100k or less that would give me the perfect combination of nice avionics, history of being a safe design, light aerobatics, not old, less than 500 total time.

I went on to Barnstormers, Controller, Trade-A-Plane, etc and entered all aircraft $100k and less. I found twins, Bonanzas, Nangchangs, helicopters, etc. I looked for the ones I liked first then from there eliminated the ones older than 10 years (possible or future maintenance hogs), older than 500 total time, gas guzzlers (radial engines and helicopters), and non aerobatic. I kept finding RVs and VAN’s airplanes.

Then I started looking at cruise speeds and the RV blew the VAN’s out of the water.

So now I had to determine the expense of painting the ones out there for sale that I didn’t like, how far they were from my house (since I had to take my trusted mechanic for the pre-purchase inspection), and what would I have to add in avionics.

I finally narrowed it down to 4 or 5 planes. So I started asking for pictures and more info. Most of them were living near the coast and in some of the pictures I could see some surface corrosion on rivets so those were discarded. Others had paint jobs that I knew I wouldn’t enjoy flying until it had a complete paint job.

So my final 2 airplanes were almost perfect. One of them already had the military paint job and the other one was all white and the lines it had were all decals so I had a clean slate to make it mine and I chose to start with that one.

I spent on that purchase almost as much as if I had built it myself but this one was built to very high standards, as per my mechanic who has built a few RVs.

It also had a lot of great details like instead of using the hinge and wire to hold the cowlings he used Skybolt adjustable camlocks and instead of using regular Philips screws the entire plane is built with stainless steel Torx and Hex screws.

The entire airplane, 0-360-a1a engine, and the C/S Hartzell prop were all new and now only had a total time of 415 hours on everything. It also has other little things like engine warmer, oil quick drain, both mags have impulse couplers, battery charging terminals, sealed battery, and instead of fiberglassing the front windshield to the fuselage he made it replaceable with torx screws. Now if I ever have to replace that front windshield I don’t have to cut into the fiberglass. Lots of little things like that. Wait, instead of writing everything just look at my signature here.

After researching for a long time I think if you want a low time well built RV-8 you're looking at $95k or more at this time. It's all cyclical so prices go up and down, who knows what it'll look like next year.
__________________
Sadly sold my RV-8 however still trying to enjoy life by living on my airport with FREE campsites for pilots to enjoy www.facebook.com/VacaMooAirport/ & flying my OnSpeed equipped C-177 while waiting for the RV15 !

Exempt by 3 out of the 10 ways but I still donated.

Last edited by Pilot135pd : 02-27-2019 at 08:19 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-04-2019, 11:46 AM
Danny King's Avatar
Danny King Danny King is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southlake, Texas
Posts: 632
Default Build or Buy

It's a very personal decision. I started the Doll September 1997. The quick build option was months away, so the only option available to me was a slow build. Buying? Not a chance. As best as I could calculate, the Doll was the 20th RV-8 to fly. No one was selling RV-8's in September 1997! Why not an RV-4? I love the 4, but she is a little too small for me. My 5' 8" wife was cramped in the back seat, and cargo space was too sparse for the two of us. So....I ordered the RV-8 tail and wing kit. Two years and seven month later the Doll was fully painted and ready for her first flight. I did not consider the building experience work. It was pure joy! So why does it take builders ten years to assemble a quick build? I really don't know! I was flying a Boeing 727 fifteen out of thirty days every month during the 2 year 7 month build. I was in hotels away from my shop two or three nights on each of those trips. When I was home I put in the hours, but it really wasn't work. It was fun and joy and pride of workmanship. It was a tremendous feeling of accomplishment.

Watching the admiring crowds around the Doll at Oshkosh 2000 was incredible. Van himself left his tent and inspected Beautiful Doll parked out in the west field now known as EAB camping. What a Rush!

I never added up all the receipts but I figure I first flew the Doll for around $55K with steam gauges and a rebuilt used engine. Since then, engine and avionics updates have put the investment around $85-$90K. She's not for sale, but if she were, you could not get her from me for anywhere near that number!

Someone posted.... you have to include the "cost" of the work in the amount invested. Someone else said to substitute the word "Joy" for "cost". I can tell you it was all Joy! It's been over 21 years since I drilled that first hole, and the joy continues along with a big RV grin every time I fly her!

Note: Having flown three different RV-4's and 26 different RV-8's I think the 4 edges out the 8 in pure flying characteristics. So Smokey Ray.... you're right on there! The RV-4 is a wonderful flying machine, and the easiest taildragger I've ever landed.
__________________
Danny King
Beautiful Doll 80434 TT 1710 hours
I0360 A1B6 200 HP
Christen Inverted Oil
First Flight 12 July 2000
VAF Dues current for 2021

Last edited by Danny King : 03-05-2019 at 03:38 PM.
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  #29  
Old 03-04-2019, 03:20 PM
Pilot135pd's Avatar
Pilot135pd Pilot135pd is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Vaca Moo Airport - TA37 in East TEXAS
Posts: 1,505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny King View Post
It's a very personal decision. I started the Doll September 1997. The quick build option was months away, so the only option available to me was a slow build. Buying? Not a chance. As best as I could calculate, the Doll was the 20th RV-8 to fly. No one was selling RV-8's in September 1997! Why not an RV-4? I love the 4, but she is a little too small for me. My 5' 8" wife was cramped in the back seat, and cargo space was too sparse for the two of us. So....I ordered the RV-8 tail and wing kit. Two years and seven month later the Doll was fully painted and ready for her first flight. I did not consider the building experience work. It was pure joy! So why does it take builders ten years to assemble a quick build? I really don't know! I was flying a Boeing 727 fifteen out of thirty days every month during the 2 year 7 month build. I was in hotels away from my shop two or three nights on each of those trips. When I was home I put in the hours, but it really wasn't work. It was fun and joy and pride of workmanship. It was a tremendous feeling of accomplishment.

Watching the admiring crowds around the Doll at Oshkosh 2000 was incredible. Van himself left his tent and inspected Beautiful Doll parked out in the west field now known as EAB camping. What a Rush!

I never added up all the receipts but I figure I first flew the Doll for around $55K with steam gauges and a rebuilt used engine. Since then, engine and avionics updates have put the investment around $85-$90K. She's not for sale, but if she were, you could not get her from me for anywhere near that number!

Someone posted.... you have to include the "cost" of the work in the amount invested. Someone else said to substitute the word "Joy" for "cost". I can tell you it was all Joy! It's been over 21 years since I drilled that first hole, and the joy continues along with a big RV grin every time I fly her!

Note: Having flown three different RV-4's and 26 different RV-8's I think the 4 edges out the 8 in pure flying characteristics. So Smokey Ray.... you're right on there! The RV-4 is a wonderful flying machine, and the easiest taildragger I've every landed.
With all that experience in -8 and so close to me and I'm sitting here for over a month since I bought mine just looking at it because all of the CFIs with more than 25 hours in -8s have been busy or have their -8s in for condition inspection. Hopefully I can fly this weekend with one CFI in between that time when the weather gets better and before it goes down the drain again.
__________________
Sadly sold my RV-8 however still trying to enjoy life by living on my airport with FREE campsites for pilots to enjoy www.facebook.com/VacaMooAirport/ & flying my OnSpeed equipped C-177 while waiting for the RV15 !

Exempt by 3 out of the 10 ways but I still donated.
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  #30  
Old 03-06-2019, 01:40 PM
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RWoodard RWoodard is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Brighton, Colorado
Posts: 477
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I was going to PM Danny directly, but thought the rest of VAF might get a kick out of this.

I owned my Midget Mustang for right at 15 years. At least half the people who ever commented on my paint scheme asked me if I was copying Danny?s Big Beautiful Doll. Kinda shows the reach of the VAF community.

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Brighton, Colorado (CO12)
RV-3 IO-320
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