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01-10-2019, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Given what the FAR's say, I would interpret your original ATC instruction as "authorization"
? 91.159 VFR cruising altitude or flight level.
Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:
(a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and -
(1) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude + 500 feet (such as 3,500, 5,500, or 7,500); or
(2) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude + 500 feet (such as 4,500, 6,500, or 8,500).
(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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01-10-2019, 12:03 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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The ?on request? phraseology is frequently misunderstood. ATC is not asking you to request it again. It means they are passing on your request to someone else, probably whoever controls the higher airspace.
We get this a lot at LVK, when calling up for an ifr clearance. LVK ground replies, ?Clearance on request?. It means that they need to call someone else (phone or computer) to get your clearance; they?ll let you know when they have it. You sometimes hear grumbling or laughter from the tower when the pilot replies to the ?on request? transmission with, ?well, I want it now?.
Now, these behind the scenes communications often go quickly, so, in the OP?s case, it?s likely the controller had just finished the needed coordination when the OP called back.
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01-10-2019, 12:13 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer
They *MAY* give you those instructions.
Probably been beaten to death, but bears repeating...VFR Flight Following is provided on an "as available" basis (I think those are the right words). ATC is not required to provide you with point-outs to all other traffic, or even conflicting traffic, if they're busy. Their job is to provide IFR-IFR separation.
They generally will, but it's the PIC's responsibility in VFR conditions to *see and avoid*.
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Even then don't count on it. I came face to face with a glider pilot while I was on climbout from a class C airport IFR in VMC. I saw a gray dot off in the distance, squinted for a second, and before I knew it I was looking at some dude's face about 200 feet below me. I "politely" asked ATC if he saw what I was seeing, he seemed sorta puzzled for a second, THEN decided to give me a traffic advisory and asked for an estimate of the glider's altitude.
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01-10-2019, 12:50 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenkm
Even then don't count on it. I came face to face with a glider pilot while I was on climbout from a class C airport IFR in VMC. I saw a gray dot off in the distance, squinted for a second, and before I knew it I was looking at some dude's face about 200 feet below me. I "politely" asked ATC if he saw what I was seeing, he seemed sorta puzzled for a second, THEN decided to give me a traffic advisory and asked for an estimate of the glider's altitude.
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The glider might not have Mode C altitude reporting, and may not have even had a transponder and was showing up a non-transponder target on ATC radar.
I'm guessing you were outside the actual Class C airspace.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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01-10-2019, 01:06 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
The glider might not have Mode C altitude reporting, and may not have even had a transponder and was showing up a non-transponder target on ATC radar.
I'm guessing you were outside the actual Class C airspace.
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On the periphery of it. He saw it on radar. No idea of its capabilities. I would've thought some sort of advisory would've been apropos given our proximity. Either way, one should not extend the assumptions about traffic separation to IFR. However it came to pass I was face to face with another aircraft while on an IFR flight so watch out!
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01-10-2019, 01:25 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 8
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ATC
As a retired air traffic controller (LA Center), a 40+ year pilot, and active commercial pilot, most of the comments are on the money.
You were instructed to remain at/or below 5k (probably due to a conflict) so he is providing separation -- from other traffic or airspace -- and by his stating "On request" -- he is letting you know he now has your request for your cruising altitude, and -- traffic permitting -- he will let you know when it is safely available. Usually he will make note of your request, but he may get busy and not get back to you for a while (or could forget). There is more going on then what you hear -- landline calls, interfacility coordination, computer entries, etc. If he keeps you on an assigned code, he is responsible to provide service, but you are his lowest priority. If he feels that he can't provide appropriate service and safety, he should terminate you and put you back on a 1200 code, but often it is less workload for him to keep you on his frequency if the airspace is busy, and you are in conflict with other aircraft (you are more predictable that way). [b]But always, maintain your scan, looking for other traffic.[b] In the case of the glider conflict, ATC radar is not optimized for non-transponder traffic, and something as slow moving as a glider does not always get the controllers attention. I've seen semi truck traffic on busy highways that show up better.
Howard Long
CFII, ATP, retired controller
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01-10-2019, 01:36 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Long
As a retired air traffic controller (LA Center), a 40+ year pilot, and active commercial pilot, most of the comments are on the money.
...... In the case of the glider conflict, ATC radar is not optimized for non-transponder traffic, and something as slow moving as a glider does not always get the controllers attention. I've seen semi truck traffic on busy highways that show up better.
Howard Long
CFII, ATP, retired controller
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And I have called LA Center to report several VFR gliders - including me - over Wrightwood at 17,500 ft in wave lift.
With no transponders and zero ground speed I'm sure they couldn't see us on radar - I got no response on the radio...
I simply reported our position to FSS who did answer. 
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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01-10-2019, 01:45 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: boynton beach fl
Posts: 210
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ZLA
Howard, I was just going to post but you beat me to it! Do you know Freeman, or Sensback? I work at ZMA.
Slow moving targets do not always show up due to a equipment filter....Moving Target Indicator.
ARTCC radar is piped in from up to 5 radar sources along with ADSB, primary radar(raw radar echos) and secondary radar(Beacon). Which is much different than approach.
If I am too busy, sector down the crapper, then I may terminate VFR's as I know they may not get the level of service they deserve due to higher priorities...IFR's.
I will vector VFR's and cap their altitudes to keep them safe. After all our primary focus is separating aircraft and issuing safety alerts... Having a VFR in an arrival corridor to a major airport is not safe by any means.
__________________
Carl Bridges
RV7 N278RV
NOW FLYING
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01-10-2019, 01:58 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Richmond VA, USA
Posts: 456
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Yup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
The ?on request? phraseology is frequently misunderstood. ATC is not asking you to request it again. It means they are passing on your request to someone else, probably whoever controls the higher airspace.
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+1.
And "on request" is generally better news than "take it up with the next controller." 
__________________
N929JA, 2007 RV-9A
Based W96: New Kent International Aerodrome
(near Richmond, VA USA)
2020 Dues Paid
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01-10-2019, 02:17 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: San Marcos, CA
Posts: 415
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Glad gliders were mentioned
First, to the point of this thread, I was one of the dummies on one of my early solos in power that requested clearance to depart, and the tower replied: "On request". I waited a few minutes, and eventually repeated myself. Again, he said, "On request". I sheepishly said "My apologies. Student pilot here. What does 'On request' mean?". I got the barely patient reply of "I have your departure on request, and will let you know when I can grant you clearance." In hindsight, it would have been nice for an instructor to have mentioned this to me.
***And now, forgive me for some thread drift***
I'm glad that gliders were mentioned. I wish all ATC and other VFR pilots were more aware of "us". Something like what I write below should be known to all pilots.
Gliders are usually searching for ways to stay up. As far as ATC is concerned, even if they do see us, they usually don't know the pilot's intent. Because in many cases, even the pilot doesn't know his own intent other than something vague like they are "trying to head north-west to the next mountain". Their desired altitude is "as high as I can get up to 17,999" and their desired and actual heading is constantly changing based on dozens of shifting variables. Picture a bunch of racoons wandering about on the freeway. As far as radio is concerned, they are usually on 123.3 talking to other glider pilots and switch to Unicom only when landing. When ATC do see us, and call us out to other pilots, it is usually "aircraft 2 miles south of you, at unknown altitude and unknown intent".
While they do obey VFR rules, they rarely fly straight and level. Consequently, they can almost NEVER obey the VFR +500' guideline. They generally fly a consistent speed, not a consistent altitude. They wiggle and turn unexpectedly, in search of chasing upward air masses. While I have an 18-meter wingspan, my wings are as thick as a tennis ball. You can't see a tennis ball from 200 yards, so you can't see my wings either. My fuselage is tiny. Maybe 2' wide, and 3' high at best. If we are flying in wave (on the upwind side of a lenticular cloud), we might be doing something like 145 knots, an heading straight for you. Some have Mode C transponders (even though they are not required), some are radio only, some have nothing. Most are fiberglass, and won't show up on radar. There are many more out there than you or ATC think. They sometimes (frequently, cough, cough  ) unwisely skulk just under cloud base, ignoring the 1000' cloud separation rule, because that is where the lift is frequently best. They fly WAY outside the areas marked as glider areas on sectionals. Those locations are where they tend to tow from or land, but might do a 1000k out and return flight to anywhere. So if you want to know where they are, put a 500-kilometer ring around each glider symbol you see. They fly from <100' AGL (while ridge running), all the way up to 17,999 MSL and fly in Class B through G (Only in Class A when given permission). They are usually hyper-aware of see-and-avoid because they know there are other planes and other glider pilots out there. But like any other pilot, they can't be perfect and sometimes have cockpit distractions.
I am not aware of a single glider pilot that hasn't had at least one near miss with power traffic who didn't even know they were there after they passed by. I personally recall several instances of Cessna Citations (my favorite) flying by, where I could actually see the pilot reading a newspaper. They might be IFR, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. I wish they would read this.
Even though we are lighter, if we touch, we both lose. So please be aware, and keep an eye outside, even if you have ADSB (gliders have an ADSB exemption  ).
__________________
~Chuck
DG-800S Sailplane
QB RV-8 -- Working on final wiring and the engine
84CX Reserved
Last edited by cdeerinck : 01-10-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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