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01-09-2019, 01:38 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,125
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ATC Says, ?Altitude Upon Request.? Say what?
So I?ve been using VFR Flight Following more now than any other time in my many years of flying. I try to use it on any trip outside my local area and it?s really been great. ATC is very accommodating and the more I use it the less chance of my stumbling over my words and sounding like the rookie that I am.
So a couple of weeks ago I was on a flight from the SF Bay Area to the Sierra foothills. During my initial call to ATC they asked what altitude I was requesting. I told them 5,500 feet. They told me to fly at or below 5,000 feet and they added something like ?5,500 feet upon request.? I hadn?t heard that terminology before.
So I do understand holding me at 5,000 because there were a couple of jets flying overhead for landing at Oakland. So, I waited several minutes until the jet traffic seemed to subside a bit before calling back and asking if I could to go 5,500 feet. This was approved and off I went.
I figure basically he?s saying ?yea man, chill at this altitude for a while even though it?s not where you want to be at. At some point hit me up later if you still want to go higher and I?ll check and see if it?s cool or not.? (The controller is from California too.) I?m pretty sure this is what is going on here. If so, I?m thinking I did the right thing by waiting to ask for higher later. I was perfectly fine flying at 5,000 the entire way but that?s not a proper VFR cruising altitude.
My questions are:
1-What exactly does this phraseology mean?
2-Would it have been ok just to stay at 5,000 feet and not request higher? I think being at the proper VFR altitude is safer of course.
__________________
Kelly Johnson
San Jose, CA
RV-9A
Pink slip issued: 5/7/12
First flight: 5/28/12, Memorial Day.
Phase I Complete: 8/18/12!
2020 donation: complete
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01-09-2019, 01:51 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 273
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More likely "Altitude ON request".
Like you guessed... He's putting you on hold, but has the note to get back to you when able.
And yes... You could have gone to 5,000 ft, as he cleared you "at or below 5,000". However, nothing wrong with sticking to the VFR 500ft.
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01-09-2019, 06:02 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: D.C.
Posts: 303
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He/She has acknowledged your cruising altitude request, and intends to delete your restriction when he is sure you won’t cause any trouble for him.
__________________
Paul M.
Fayetteville, NC
Airport Bum
RV-4 / PA28-180
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01-09-2019, 06:13 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArVeeNiner
...?yea man, chill at this altitude for a while even though it?s not where you want to be at. At some point hit me up later if you still want to go higher and I?ll check and see if it?s cool or not.?
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You crack me up, dude! Did he harsh your mellow?
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(2020 dues paid)
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01-10-2019, 08:29 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,125
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So, when I hear that, I should wait until they tell me to go higher eventually? To me, the terminology suggests that they are waiting on me to request higher at a later time.
__________________
Kelly Johnson
San Jose, CA
RV-9A
Pink slip issued: 5/7/12
First flight: 5/28/12, Memorial Day.
Phase I Complete: 8/18/12!
2020 donation: complete
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01-10-2019, 08:45 AM
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Albert, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 515
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If you are on Facebook, there is a really good group called Ask a Pilot/Air Traffic Controller that I’ve found to be a very helpful resource. You will get a comprehensive answer there if you ask.
__________________
______________________
Randy P.
1st time builder
RV10 - QB wings and fuse. Working on cabin top
St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Reserved:C-GRPY
Last edited by RandyAB : 01-10-2019 at 09:05 AM.
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01-10-2019, 09:14 AM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArVeeNiner
So, when I hear that, I should wait until they tell me to go higher eventually? To me, the terminology suggests that they are waiting on me to request higher at a later time.
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Basically, yes to the first question. He?s telling you that he has heard your request and is putting that in to the system and his own thinking. If you need to climb and he hasn?t responded with a clearance higher, then ask again. Otherwise, he?s basically telling you he knows you want to go higher, and he has the request in his queue.
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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01-10-2019, 10:11 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,297
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VFR flight following is dual benefit service. ATC will often provide requests of you to help them manage traffic separation. Once they are talking to you, you are part of their active traffic to manage, unlike VFR traffic they are not talking to. They will give you altitudes or vectors to manage separation with other IFR/VFR traffic that they are managing. For the most part, they only operate on IFR altitudes, so any altitude requests they make will be in 1000's and not 500's.
We should understand that ATC and pilot are helping one another when under flight following and we should strive to accomodate their requests. Given that compliance with your request is not an obligation, we should strive to be good "partners" and accomodate any requests.
Don't forget that when they (approach or center) give you an altitude or vector, they are used to full compliance (they spend 95% or more of their time dealing with IFR traffic), so don't deviate without telling them you are doing so. Even though you are VFR, you are not allowed to ignore an instruction from ATC. No different than a tower controller at a D airport. You can reply unable, but can't ignore it.
The "5500 upon request" is his way of saying that eventhough he gave you 5000, he will accept a request from you to fly at 5500. Usually if he can't give it to you now, he will indicate that in the statement. It is easier for them to manage everyone on IFR altitudes to maintain separation and that is likely why he gave you 5000 instead of 5500. Separation requirements are mostly in 1000' increments and everyone else he is managing are on 1000' levels.
You usually only see this in busy approach control areas. It would be rare with center or less busy approach controllers.
__________________
N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019
Last edited by lr172 : 01-10-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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01-10-2019, 10:37 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: US
Posts: 2,251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172
They will give you altitudes or vectors to manage separation with other IFR/VFR traffic that they are managing.
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They *MAY* give you those instructions.
Probably been beaten to death, but bears repeating...VFR Flight Following is provided on an "as available" basis (I think those are the right words). ATC is not required to provide you with point-outs to all other traffic, or even conflicting traffic, if they're busy. Their job is to provide IFR-IFR separation.
They generally will, but it's the PIC's responsibility in VFR conditions to *see and avoid*.
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2019 Dues paid!
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01-10-2019, 11:11 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer
They *MAY* give you those instructions.
Probably been beaten to death, but bears repeating...VFR Flight Following is provided on an "as available" basis (I think those are the right words). ATC is not required to provide you with point-outs to all other traffic, or even conflicting traffic, if they're busy. Their job is to provide IFR-IFR separation.
They generally will, but it's the PIC's responsibility in VFR conditions to *see and avoid*.
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Good point and agreed. Wasn't implying that they will always provide separation. Only trying to explain why the instructions were given to the OP in his situation.
__________________
N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019
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