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  #41  
Old 01-03-2019, 05:27 AM
Larry DeCamp's Avatar
Larry DeCamp Larry DeCamp is offline
 
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Location: Clinton, Indiana
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Default So in laymans terms ?

Appologies for any drift here but hopefully my question will help others. I am currently cowling a -4 with 0360 and Vetterman 4 pipe downturn exhaust. Archives have suggested:
1-Provide nice curved surface to guide air around the engine mount tubes
2-Dimension the exit area to conform to the Horton Vi/Vo ratio
3- If you need climb cooling add cowl flap
4- Dont cut off the downturn tubes but ?maybe? trim parallel to free stream
Would Steve or Dan please suggest a ?prescription? for a layman to follow on this task ?
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Larry DeCamp
RV-3B flying w/7:1 0320 / carb / Pmags / Catto 3b / digital steam
RV-4 fastback w/ Superior roller 360/AFP/G3X/CPI/Catto3b
Clinton, IN
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  #42  
Old 01-03-2019, 08:43 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry DeCamp View Post
Appologies for any drift here but hopefully my question will help others. I am currently cowling a -4 with 0360 and Vetterman 4 pipe downturn exhaust. Archives have suggested:
1-Provide nice curved surface to guide air around the engine mount tubes
2-Dimension the exit area to conform to the Horton Vi/Vo ratio
3- If you need climb cooling add cowl flap
4- Dont cut off the downturn tubes but “maybe” trim parallel to free stream
Would Steve or Dan please suggest a “prescription” for a layman to follow on this task ?
Larry, first suggestion is to think in terms of building a system. Whatever individual modifications you might make should be considered in a system context. Bandaids only go so far, and real bolt-on speed is rare.

Next, remember the little things. I'm going to take one subject as an example, that 4-pipe exhaust. You're thinking about cutting off the downturns, but in the context of how to reduce cooling drag, the best bet would be to stack it under a workbench somewhere.

Why? First, they have a lot of surface area, a minor deal, but it all adds up. I don't know the tailpipe diameter, but I'll guess 1.25"D for illustration. Total exhaust area is 4.9 sq in for the four pipes, exactly the same as a single 2.5"D tailpipe on a 4-into-1. However, skin friction is roughly doubled, because total surface circumference is doubled, and one system goal was exit velocity.

Consider cowl exit shape. Four pipes don't package well, and they eat up a lot of exit area, thus requiring more frontal area. Our goals were to reduce exit area and frontal area. Look up Axel's RV-4, which is about as far as a fella can go eliminating frontal area a 4-pipe. Frontal area is reduced, but the pipes are outboard, near the gear leg fairings. That junction is not likely to be low drag, and the pair of down-pointing exhaust streams form an invisible wall. It's not just a matter of eliminating lengths of pipe hanging down in the freestream. It's also the plume of high velocity exhaust.



Let's look at Dave Anders' RV-4, or his friend Brian Schmidtbauer's Mustang II. Those are fixed exits with a single tailpipe. Overall cowling frontal area is about the same as Axel's, or maybe even a wee bit more. However, neither suffer from an exhaust plume wall, and in Dave's case, the outboard areas near the gear legs are slick. The exits are at the point of maximum fuselage cross section with little or nothing to trip the flow; consider that in the context of Steve's pressure tutorial. If desired, either could add variable area forward of the firewall plane, and shrink the fixed exit some additional amount, but instead they've gone with a degree of exhaust augmentation to supplement low speed cooling.

Looks familiar to RV14 owners, yes?





Augmentation comes with its own design issues, so I elected to work toward a good variable exit strategy for low speed cooling. The RV-8 already has clean areas outboard, toward the gear legs, so I chopped off a whole bunch of frontal area by eliminating the entire "backward coal shovel" from the bottom of the stock cowl, eventually reducing the fixed exit to a slot 1.625" high. It's supplemented with variable for climb or cool cruise, which only adds about 8 sq in of frontal area when fully open...not what most would consider a "cowl flap". The tailpipe is slash cut to point the plume rearward, although not directly aft where it would be entirely thrust. That's a compromise to keep the airplane practical; low noise and belly drumming, not so much floor heat. I visualize the plume as an ordinary tube extended into the airstream. Like that phantom tube, angling it back reduces drag. Exhaust smut on the belly tells me it reattaches a little past the wing spar, which tells me the compromise is working; recall that RV8s tend to crack the belly skin at the ends of the floor ribs, just in front of the spar...where I did not want it to drum. Point here is that (1) it's a single plume, not two wide plumes, and (2) sometimes compromises are necessary. If I was building an RV-8 for Reno, it would be different.

Cowl and exhaust as delivered. Targeted exit area sketched in, tailpipe as yet uncut.



Finished exit, with variable area forward and cut pipe. The trash in the exit is measurement gear, all since removed.



I can't offer a specific prescription, just ideas. You'll have to do like the rest of us...sit on a stool and stare at it a while, read some books, think about it in your spare time, then build, then measure if you really want to know how well you did.
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Last edited by DanH : 01-03-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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  #43  
Old 01-03-2019, 10:30 AM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Great post Dan. The fast Reno guys know the plume drag can be significant but they don't have to care much about noise. They go to great lengths to eliminate this from control surfaces too with exotic gap seals.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 441.0 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi2.htm



Last edited by rv6ejguy : 01-04-2019 at 07:26 AM.
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  #44  
Old 01-03-2019, 12:44 PM
Larry DeCamp's Avatar
Larry DeCamp Larry DeCamp is offline
 
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Location: Clinton, Indiana
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Default Thanks Dan !

As usual, the feedback is absolutely excellent. I can do this with minimal stress except for exhaust. Just FWIW, Clint and Mr. Vetterman both insist the four pipe yields better engine results than crossover or 4 into 1 and is NA for the -4. There are 4:1 available at $$$$$, but I get the feeling it might be a trade-off between drag and engine performance. As suggested, a chair in the shop with a beer and the airplane is next
Thanks much Dan
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Larry DeCamp
RV-3B flying w/7:1 0320 / carb / Pmags / Catto 3b / digital steam
RV-4 fastback w/ Superior roller 360/AFP/G3X/CPI/Catto3b
Clinton, IN
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  #45  
Old 01-03-2019, 02:12 PM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry DeCamp View Post
...Clint and Mr. Vetterman both insist the four pipe yields better engine results than crossover or 4 into 1 and is NA for the -4. There are 4:1 available at $$$$$, but I get the feeling it might be a trade-off between drag and engine performance.
Yer' welcome, and I think your feeling hits squarely on the truth of the matter.

All good choices are based on reasoned compromise. My reasoning was that I could go faster, cheaper, via drag reduction than HP increase. I am not always right. Just ask Ms Patti....
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  #46  
Old 01-03-2019, 04:49 PM
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skylor skylor is offline
 
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Location: Southern California
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Default Reno

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
Great post Dan. The fast Reno guys know the plume drag can be significant but they don't have to care much about noise. They go to great lengths to eliminate this from control surfaces to with exotic gap seals.
...and the fast glass forced induction guys have also been known to occasionally burn the belly composite on their fuselages when the plume gets too close too soon...

I think Andy Findlay had this happen in 2017.

Skylor
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  #47  
Old 01-03-2019, 05:04 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylor View Post
...and the fast glass forced induction guys have also been known to occasionally burn the belly composite on their fuselages when the plume gets too close too soon...

I think Andy Findlay had this happen in 2017.

Skylor
Modified for 2018 along with many other lessons learned in 2017 for the Gold win. Can't learn without pushing the limits or making some mistakes.





Augmentor detail. A large portion of the engine cooling air passes through these tubes aided by the tremendous amount of exhaust energy present here. It worked extremely well compared to non-augmented setups with similar power.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 441.0 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi2.htm



Last edited by rv6ejguy : 01-03-2019 at 05:24 PM.
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  #48  
Old 01-04-2019, 06:23 AM
160kt 160kt is offline
 
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Posts: 89
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Tapped on photo and the link says is private. I would like to see more so as to make out the augmentor in the photo. Maybe could you make the photos public? Thanks
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  #49  
Old 01-04-2019, 07:20 AM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 160kt View Post
Tapped on photo and the link says is private. I would like to see more so as to make out the augmentor in the photo. Maybe could you make the photos public? Thanks
These photos share the Flickr account with some of my other public modeling photos which I don't want mixed together. You can just right click these here on VAF and save to your computer. I don't have any more showing the augmentor detail.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 441.0 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi2.htm



Last edited by rv6ejguy : 01-04-2019 at 07:26 AM.
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  #50  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:45 AM
Larry DeCamp's Avatar
Larry DeCamp Larry DeCamp is offline
 
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Location: Clinton, Indiana
Posts: 992
Default Exhaust plume refinement ?

Dan,
Something used on antiques to abate noise was converting a round pipe into a manifold with a slot for an exit ( reference some radials and early flat 4 cyls). This might have potential to consolidate 2 pipes into a flat slotted receptacle that might enhance airflow over exhaust exit, and allow a more parallel discharge to fuse without drumming ? Critique welcome from all.
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Larry DeCamp
RV-3B flying w/7:1 0320 / carb / Pmags / Catto 3b / digital steam
RV-4 fastback w/ Superior roller 360/AFP/G3X/CPI/Catto3b
Clinton, IN
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