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  #1  
Old 11-23-2018, 04:29 PM
Mike_Singer Mike_Singer is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
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Default Blind vs Solid Rivet

Hi All,
I am about 15 hours deep into the empennage kit and just starting to get to permanent rivets. Are the solid rivets stronger than the blind rivets? Some spots seem much easier to blind rivet, but the directions say to use a solid rivet.
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2018, 06:31 PM
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wirejock wirejock is online now
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 3,947
Default Cherrymax

I didn't stay in Holiday Inn so take this for what it's worth.
Always follow Van's design. They have the FEA to know what changes can be used.
Only one pop rivet is as strong as a solid rivet. Cherrymax.
That said, Vans does allow a pop rivet in some places like the last hole at the trailing edge.
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  #3  
Old 11-23-2018, 06:31 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,884
Default

For structure, regular pulled rivets can't replace solid fivets. Only Cherrymax can typically replace solid rivets, and not in every hole of a line of rivets.
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  #4  
Old 11-23-2018, 07:51 PM
Michael Henning Michael Henning is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 536
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On the RV-4, it was allowed to substitute the 3/32” solid shank rivet with a CS4-4 pulled rivet on the bottom wing skins. It was said to be 10% stronger because of the larger size. The finish wouldn’t be as smooth though.
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2018, 08:08 AM
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rvanstory rvanstory is offline
 
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Location: New Braunfels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Henning View Post
On the RV-4, it was allowed to substitute the 3/32? solid shank rivet with a CS4-4 pulled rivet on the bottom wing skins. It was said to be 10% stronger because of the larger size. The finish wouldn?t be as smooth though.
Thought I'd try this on a 3/32" dimpled hole in a test piece just to see how proud it would sit. Was AMAZED at how flush a CS4-4 would sit in a 3/32" dimple. It may not be perfect, but once primed and painted, bet you can't tell the difference. Sometimes the simplest of things elude me until someone post something like this and you have an "ah-ha" moment. Thanks Michael!
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  #6  
Old 11-24-2018, 08:53 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Henning View Post
On the RV-4, it was allowed to substitute the 3/32? solid shank rivet with a CS4-4 pulled rivet on the bottom wing skins. It was said to be 10% stronger because of the larger size. The finish wouldn?t be as smooth though.
IIRC it was allowed to use the smaller MK319BS rivet which needed a 7/64 hole rather than a CS-4-4 rivet in a 1/8 hole.

Given that nothing was pre-punched in those olden days the larger 1/8 holes could start getting into edge distance issues. The early instructions allowed that on the whole wing.
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  #7  
Old 11-25-2018, 09:35 AM
Michael Henning Michael Henning is offline
 
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Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 536
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I would use an 1/8” hole, and appropriate dimple die, it will sit even nicer.
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  #8  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:06 PM
Aero_Octaveus Aero_Octaveus is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 216
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There is going to be a few more places in the future where you may consider a pulled rivet. On the wings, you may choose to use pulled rivets attaching the leading edge to the spar. I've had to use a couple for the wing skin and rear spar where the new aileron doubler gets installed. I've also used one inside the fuel tank. Wirejock is right cherrymax are very strong. You would be wise to read up eventually on pulled rivet types. I did up a solid/pulled rivet comparison spreadsheet that listed all the shear strength, grip length and rivet/pin material. I also bought 1-2 cherry max rivets of each size and length. This became extremely handy for the handful of times you will run into a snag and didn't break the bank.

I always emailed Vans to double check if a particular pulled rivet type was acceptable for the area I was working on and that quick reply went in my build binder.
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Last edited by Aero_Octaveus : 12-12-2018 at 11:09 PM.
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2018, 08:54 AM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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I have no data for the NAS1097 rivets, but seriously doubt that they are as strong as the rivets we use elsewhere. The body is, but since the heads are smaller, they'd pull through with a serious shear load.

For the standard rivets, twice as many -3 rivets on 1" spacing are slightly stronger than -4 rivets on 2" spacing.

Dave
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2018, 08:56 PM
Tommy123 Tommy123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Naples fl
Posts: 140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule View Post
I have no data for the NAS1097 rivets, but seriously doubt that they are as strong as the rivets we use elsewhere. The body is, but since the heads are smaller, they'd pull through with a serious shear load.

For the standard rivets, twice as many -3 rivets on 1" spacing are slightly stronger than -4 rivets on 2" spacing.

Dave
NAS1097 rivets are commonly used by Boeing on skins. Some of the fuselage skins are .080" thick.
The problem with using a cherry max besides the cost is that the stem and lock ring are steel, the body is aluminum. Differential metal corrosion. I worked on twin otters on floats in the Caribbean and the cherry rivets would only have the body remaining, everything else disappeared.
Also if you never had to remove a cherry you're in for a experience. That stem and ring are hard. We used a high speed grinder and a tiny ball rotary file to get the ring out. One slip and you screw up a skin.
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