RVs to Oshkosh

[flyinhood]

Originally Posted by mciaglia

I must graciously disagree with the OP point A. RV?s although a huge biggest component of the experimental aircraft do not represent the majority of aircraft at Oshkosh. From Cubs, certified, aerobatic, vintage there is such a mix of aircraft. 90knts is almost double the published stall speed of many of the RV aircraft. That is certainly a doable speed to fly and if a pilots skills aren?t up to that then a good self assessment of skill is in order. Try slowing down a high performance biplane, that I can?t see jack out the front to 90kts and fly the approach. I have several times after practicing and planning my arrival time.

Maybe as RV pilots we can pave the way by demonstrating precise adherence to the arrival.

I wonder why 90kts was determined to speed?

Or get a mass arrival organized like the beech pilots do.

nicely said

[RV6_flyer]

Originally Posted by mciaglia

I must graciously disagree with the OP point A. RV?s although a huge biggest component of the experimental aircraft do not represent the majority of aircraft at Oshkosh. From Cubs, certified, aerobatic, vintage there is such a mix of aircraft. 90knts is almost double the published stall speed of many of the RV aircraft. That is certainly a doable speed to fly and if a pilots skills aren?t up to that then a good self assessment of skill is in order. Try slowing down a high performance biplane, that I can?t see jack out the front to 90kts and fly the approach. I have several times after practicing and planning my arrival time.

Maybe as RV pilots we can pave the way by demonstrating precise adherence to the arrival.

I wonder why 90kts was determined to speed?

Or get a mass arrival organized like the beech pilots do.

Originally Posted by jbDC9

Disagree. RVs are just fine doing this arrival at 90 kts. Or even down to 70 for a bit if there's some compression going on... it happens.

Originally Posted by dtw_rv6

I can fly all day long at 65kts.

Originally Posted by flyinhood

nicely said

I agree. If you do not feel safe flying your RV at 90 KIAS in trail with other aircraft, then you should not be flying to Oshkosh AirVenture.

[airguy]

I think I'm going to have to pile on here, if you are not comfortable flying the current 90kt approach, then you shouldn't go. Last year I got a lot of practice maneuvering to avoid other airplanes while flying at 70 knots because the guy in front of my was backing up trying to make space from the guy in front of him - and I didn't like it much but it was well within the capabilities of both the machine and the meat servo driving it.

Would I like a 150 knot approach? Sure - but it's not realistic - what we have to look at is an appropriate speed for a large mix of airplanes to operate at for the approach. 90 knots is an excellent COMPROMISE speed.

I'm also a STRONG proponent of organizing one or perhaps two RV mass arrivals to help us get in. I would 100% change my arrival plans to fit in with the mass arrival and avoid the circus.

[Kyle Boatright]

Originally Posted by airguy

I think I'm going to have to pile on here, if you are not comfortable flying the current 90kt approach...

I don't think anyone here has expressed discomfort with the 90 knot approach. What I have seen in the thread and do understand is that when things get slow, people get concerned. That doesn't happen in the 135 knot stream.

I get it, but I'm fine in the 90 knot stream.

[6 Gun]

I understand what the OP is saying in the first post and I agree with it.
Im not a great pilot like the ones that disagree I can fly all the way down to stall with more power and the nose sticking up with no vis ahead with out loss of altitude but I will over heat in short order.
But why would I want to do that its not safe?
Show me a 7AC that will fly 90Kts!
Show me a Piper Cub that will fly 90Kts!

The Stearman I had would not fly 90Kts with its wood prop on it and it had 220HP.So make the line longer and its a big problem for a lot of airplanes.
I cut a 8x8 cowl flap in my RV6 just for the ground opps at KOSH because of the big chance of having to idle for 30 or more min.I love going to OSH and its a long way from Florida if I ever go and cant camp in HBC I want ever waste my time going again.So when I go I plan arriving safely and if that means going high on the new 40 mile track that's what I will do and I want feel bad because it will be a LOT safer than flying behind a Cub.
The real answer more arrival points and more qualified controllers and not to let the ones that worked 2018 back in the gate.

[Phil]

I've always believed there should never be a "War Bird" arrival. All of the arrivals should be "Performance Based" arrivals. If you can fly the performance profile for that arrival, then you can fly the arrival.

If the Fisk arrival is carrying 400% more load than the Warbird arrival, then it only makes sense to shuffle that load over to another arrival that is less saturated. The only way it make sense to have an exclusive arrival for warbirds is if EAA politics is in play. In which case someone needs to man-up (I had a better term picked out but I'll keep it family friendly) and simply tell the warbird folks their exclusive route is now a general use performance-base route and that's the way it's going to be.

Every arrival should be a performance based arrival and if you can fly it, fly it.

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright

I don't think anyone here has expressed discomfort with the 90 knot approach. What I have seen in the thread and do understand is that when things get slow, people get concerned. That doesn't happen in the 135 knot stream.

I get it, but I'm fine in the 90 knot stream.

If you stack up 100 RV's in a line, they will start slinky'ing, climbing and depending, just like the planes doing 90 knots. Think about your drive into work, the first guy let's off the gas for a split second, #2 let's off more, #3 touches his brakes, #4 hammers his brakes. Same thing happens with planes.

Besides, we RV drivers are not perfect, some will cut us off and do all the things the other pilots were accused of doing.

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by Phil

I've always believed there should never be a "War Bird" arrival. All of the arrivals should be "Performance Based" arrivals. If you can fly the performance profile for that arrival, then you can fly the arrival.

If the Fisk arrival is carrying 400% more load than the Warbird arrival, then it only makes sense to shuffle that load over to another arrival that is less saturated. The only way it make sense to have an exclusive arrival for warbirds is if EAA politics is in play. In which case someone needs to man-up (I had a better term picked out but I'll keep it family friendly) and simply tell the warbird folks their exclusive route is now a general use performance-base route and that's the way it's going to be.

Every arrival should be a performance based arrival and if you can fly it, fly it.

This is the most logical response I?ve seen so far. I didn?t fly in until Thursday towards the end of the week, but I heard a lot of grumbling about the scheduled slot times for the beech, cardinals, etc. If people are there and ready to fly the performance approach their aircraft is comfortable with, then let them in.

[BCP Boys]

Almost 5 years ago I was a newby to the RV community and had just bought my RV-7 from California. For 15 years I had been flying GA with certified planes and for some reason never attended Oshkosh. When I got my RV, I couldn't wait to fly to OSH with my RV. My first trip OSH 4 years ago was one of the best experiences of my flying career. I read the NOTAM so many times that I had just about memorized it. I practiced flying at 90 knots all the way down to flying the pattern at 60knots if needed. I did this because so many people on this site were so adamant about telling others who were asking about flying to OSH that they "better practice flying slow and landing on the spot" - so I did. However, I always wondered why the RV community is so set on flying the 90Knot route. So much that there were several posts about "if you are not comfortable with flying at 90Knots then you shouldn't be going to Oshkosh". So why is that? Why do we push for the slower route and make it seem like taboo to fly the faster approach?My thought is that as the PIC, you should make your own decision and not worry about what others think of you just because you want to fly a particular arrival. I'm not judging, just asking a harmless question. Personally, I could care less if the route was 135Knots, 90knots or 70knots. I think my RV would like it better if it was 135knots because it would stay cooler and personally I would probably like it because I would get to landing quicker and getting out of the mess faster. So why not fly the "Performance Arrival"?

[RV6_flyer]

Originally Posted by BCP Boys

Almost 5 years ago I was a newby to the RV community and had just bought my RV-7 from California. For 15 years I had been flying GA with certified planes and for some reason never attended Oshkosh. When I got my RV, I couldn't wait to fly to OSH with my RV. My first trip OSH 4 years ago was one of the best experiences of my flying career. I read the NOTAM so many times that I had just about memorized it. I practiced flying at 90 knots all the way down to flying the pattern at 60knots if needed. I did this because so many people on this site were so adamant about telling others who were asking about flying to OSH that they "better practice flying slow and landing on the spot" - so I did. However, I always wondered why the RV community is so set on flying the 90Knot route. So much that there were several posts about "if you are not comfortable with flying at 90Knots then you shouldn't be going to Oshkosh". So why is that? Why do we push for the slower route and make it seem like taboo to fly the faster approach?My thought is that as the PIC, you should make your own decision and not worry about what others think of you just because you want to fly a particular arrival. I'm not judging, just asking a harmless question. Personally, I could care less if the route was 135Knots, 90knots or 70knots. I think my RV would like it better if it was 135knots because it would stay cooler and personally I would probably like it because I would get to landing quicker and getting out of the mess faster. So why not fly the "Performance Arrival"?

Because RVs can fly 90 KIAS. NOTAM wants you at 90 KIAS unless you are NOT able to do it. IF you are not comfortable flying an RV at 90 KIAS, you have no business going to OSH AirVenture. In other words, if you are uncomfortable flying your RV at 90 KIAS, then you should stay away from the traffic that is arriving at AirVenture that is following the NOTAM at 90 KIAS.

The aircraft flying 135 KIAS, must slow down to land when they get to the airport. The controllers must sequence the higher speed aircraft into the other arriving aircraft. So two guys flying 90 KIAS, must go around because someone that does not want to fly 90 KIAS is doing what they want.