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10-11-2018, 01:43 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hinckley, Ohio
Posts: 2,065
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E15 Vs. E10 Mogas for 912ULS
I thought I'd start a thread on this subject now that<SNIP> 15% alcohol blend <will be required> in auto fuels. <edited per posting rules>
From SERVICE INSTRUCTION SELECTION OF SUITABLE OPERATING FLUIDS FOR ROTAX® ENGINE TYPE 912 AND 914 (SERIES)E10 (Unleaded gasoline blended with 10 % ethanol)... In addition to AVGAS and unleaded automotive fuel (Mogas) the ROTAX® 912/914 series of engines are now approved for use with E10. Fuels that contain more than 10% ethanol blend have not been tested by BRP-Powertrain and are not permitted for use.
I sent an email to Rotax Technical Support telling them the United States will will soon be switching to year-round E15 auto fuels. I will report soonest when I hear back from Rotax. I also sent an email to Lockwood Aviation asking same question.
I also wonder what Van's has to say regarding increased ethanol in the RV-12 fuel system. I believe Van's runs E10 Mogas in the RV-12 demo plane. This will also be a concern with the new RV-12iS.
Aside from compatibility, the increase in ethanol will reduce engine power slightly and also increase fuel consumption slightly as energy content (BTU) for alcohol is less than that of gasoline. On a positive note, added alcohol will increase fuel octane rating.
Other concerns include long-term storage and vapor lock.
Just some thoughts to get the discussion going...
__________________
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Jim Stricker
EAA #499867
PPL/ASEL 1970 - Sport Pilot since 2007
80 hrs Flying Aeronca Chief 11AC N86203
1130 hrs Flying 46 Piper J-3 Cub N6841H
Bought Flying RV-12 #120058 Oct 2015 with 48TT - Hobbs now 622 
LSRM-A Certificate 2016 for RV-12 N633CM
Special Thanks... EJ Trucks - USN Crew Chief A-4 Skyhawk
MJ Stricker (Father & CFI) - USAAF 1st Lt. Captain B-17H
Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 11:48 AM.
Reason: Political comments removed
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10-11-2018, 03:29 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3
I thought I'd start a thread on this subject now that <SNIP> 15% alcohol blend in auto fuels will be required. <edited>
From SERVICE INSTRUCTION SELECTION OF SUITABLE OPERATING FLUIDS FOR ROTAX® ENGINE TYPE 912 AND 914 (SERIES)E10 (Unleaded gasoline blended with 10 % ethanol)... In addition to AVGAS and unleaded automotive fuel (Mogas) the ROTAX® 912/914 series of engines are now approved for use with E10. Fuels that contain more than 10% ethanol blend have not been tested by BRP-Powertrain and are not permitted for use.
I sent an email to Rotax Technical Support telling them the United States will will soon be switching to year-round E15 auto fuels. I will report soonest when I hear back from Rotax. I also sent an email to Lockwood Aviation asking same question.
I also wonder what Van's has to say regarding increased ethanol in the RV-12 fuel system. I believe Van's runs E10 Mogas in the RV-12 demo plane. This will also be a concern with the new RV-12iS.
Aside from compatibility, the increase in ethanol will reduce engine power slightly and also increase fuel consumption slightly as energy content (BTU) for alcohol is less than that of gasoline. On a positive note, added alcohol will increase fuel octane rating.
Other concerns include long-term storage and vapor lock.
Just some thoughts to get the discussion going...
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Good discussion topic Jim. I cringe at the thought of being forced to use ethanol in gas, mostly for the loss of efficiency and the increased corrosive effect of it with aluminum. While it does increase specific fuel consumption (meaning more fuel burned per hour for the same power setting), it increases engine power, which is an effect of the increased oxygenation of the fuel during combustion and contributes to the increased octane, which you noted.
A good read on all of this is INFLUENCE OF COMPOSITION OF GASOLINE – ETHANOL BLENDS ON PARAMETERS OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES.
<SNIP>I'm disappointed the FAA's PAFI has been now pushed out until 2020. I was very hopeful to have unleaded avgas in the 100 octane range.
For us UL Power engine users, the engines are good for 15% ethanol, so I guess I'll just grin and bear it.
One last thing to consider, just because the EPA has been ordered to raise the limit from 10% to 15%, and from winter months to all year, does not mean all states will move to it. I highly doubt that the California Air Research Board will go for it, most notably due to the increase smog in the summer months in the already smoggy valleys out here.
__________________
Ron Gawer
- RV10, Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"...many great hours and happy landings so far.
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 10:24 PM.
Reason: Political statements removed
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10-11-2018, 06:57 AM
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer
....For us UL Power engine users, the engines are good for 15% ethanol, so I guess I'll just grin and bear it......
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Hey Ron, this is a total thread drift, but how do you like your UL Power engine? Have you ever had a Rotax that you can compare and contrast it to? If you'd like to just send me a PM or even start a new thread on the subject, that'll be fine.
Thanks,
Mark
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10-11-2018, 07:15 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Omaha, NE (KMLE)
Posts: 2,247
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First of all, could we maybe, pretty please, have just one forum where we don't have a political spin on topics? It gets really, really tiresome. [Agreed, Dale. Rather than delete this entire thread due to rules violation, the thread has been edited to remove the political comments. ]
Second, considering that I can still buy 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas at the pump 1/2 mile from the airport, I'm not particularly worried about everything going to E15. There's no requirement that all gasoline will be blended with ethanol at all, let alone 15%.
__________________
Dale
Omaha, NE
RV-12 # 222 N980KM "Screamin' Canary" (bought flying)
Fisher Celebrity (under construction)
Previous RV-7 project (sold)
Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 11:59 AM.
Reason: Explanation of thread editing
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10-11-2018, 02:12 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleB
Considering that I can still buy 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas at the pump 1/2 mile from the airport, I'm not particularly worried about everything going to E15.
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Unfortunately, 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas isn't readily available in all parts of the country.
__________________
Mark
RV-12iS Fuselage
RV-9A Project: Sold
VAF donation made for 2020
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10-11-2018, 02:28 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Southern Michigan
Posts: 1,966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleB
First of all, could we maybe, pretty please, have just one forum where we don't have a political spin on topics? It gets really, really tiresome.
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I agree.  
__________________
David C.
Howell, MI
RV-10: #41686 Under Construction
RV-9A: #90949 Under Construction
RV-10: #40637 Completed/Sold 2016
Cozy MKIV:#656 Completed/Sold 2007
"Donor Exempt" but donated through Dec. 2020
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10-11-2018, 02:34 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Omaha, NE (KMLE)
Posts: 2,247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv9builder
Unfortunately, 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas isn't readily available in all parts of the country.
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Granted, and it's far from universally available here. There's one gas station chain that I know of that sells it (and my mistake, it's 91 not 93). But I don't think ethanol is required by law or regulation, existing or proposed, in all gasoline in any amount.
__________________
Dale
Omaha, NE
RV-12 # 222 N980KM "Screamin' Canary" (bought flying)
Fisher Celebrity (under construction)
Previous RV-7 project (sold)
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10-11-2018, 03:43 PM
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been here awhile
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3
I thought I'd start a thread on this subject now that <SNIP> 15% alcohol blend <will be required> in auto fuels. ...
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As I understood the announcement, E-15 is not mandatory or replacing E-10, it will just be available nationwide. There are a lot of vehicles on the road that were not designed for E-15.
Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 10:17 PM.
Reason: changed E85 to E-15; OP’s quote edited to remove the politics
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10-11-2018, 03:47 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
As I understood the announcement, E85 is not mandatory or replacing E-10, it will just be available nationwide. There are a lot of vehicles on the road that were not designed for E85.
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I think the debate here is between E-10 and E-15, not E-85.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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10-11-2018, 05:37 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3
Other concerns include long-term storage and vapor lock.
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Ethanol is added to reduce evaporative HC emissions. It has a lower vapor pressure. Stability is another matter as auto gas is not very stable as it is. Vodka seems to last pretty well.
Combustion, power, bsfc, starting and ability to fumigate the intake charge (cold weather starting) would certainly expected to be part of the test protocols.
Elastomers should not be an issue, unless the gasoline side of the formulation changes oddly.
It would have better water tolerance as there is more ethanol to hold it.
__________________
Bill
RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
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