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07-31-2018, 11:26 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 242
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Questions
First, I was in the mix for a couple of turns before getting into the hold at Green lake, about three laps of Green Lake, then on my first attempt to actually go up the tracks, I was suddenly in an unplanned three ship formation with an RV on my left wing fairly close, and a Bo tighter than the Aeroshell team formations. I bailed out by accelerating then turning right. It was way too dangerous to turn left with the stream turning back from Fisk. Went to Portage for a while, then after listening on LiveATC for a couple of hours, decided Fond Du Loc was my new destination. I did go back and fly-in Wednesday which was great.
So some questions / suggestions:
1) Was the ATIS ever changed to instruct people to enter the hold? Granted pilots should read the @#$%&$@%^ NOTAM, but they are people, and do things wrong. An ATIS instruction would help.
2) Was ATIS ever changed to say DO NOT APPROACH Green Lake or Ripon? The area was saturated, and more and more planes kept coming. Sure the self-entitled pilots would ignore it, but most people were attempting to follow the instructions. Hold people further out or get them to divert before reaching the hornet's nest.
3) Occasional use of "turn left, go back to Ripon" would be fine, but that was the continual direction from Fisk ATC for hours on end. So now we have new arrivals from the south, arrivals out of the hold from the west, and those turned back from the north all arriving over Ripon. This was the most dangerous aspect about what happened Sunday.
4) Is there someone in ATC observing the big picture? Who is responsible for the high level ATC decision making? The coordination between the field and Fisk seems to have been one way. Was anyone in ATC aware of what was going on at Ripon?
5) Those of you who state, it was super dangerous along with "I attempted for XX hours", are you nuts? This is really dangerous, I'll just keep doing it would seem to be an unsafe attitude! Please do some reflection on your aeronautical decision making.
6) We all observed a significant number of pilots flying poorly, not following the NOTAM, etc. I wish there was something we could do about that, but I'm not sure what it is. My only idea would be a fine for anyone that could not produce a printed copy of the NOTAM in their aircraft on landing. That's be a lot of effort to enforce.
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07-31-2018, 03:06 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Diego, Ca
Posts: 431
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2016 was worse
We were in the mess Sunday. Waited for ceilings to lift outside Chicago, then sat in the FBO listening to Live ATC... once it sounded stabilized we took off. Approaching 30nm to RIPON, we started listing to FISKE again. It sounded backed up so we put down at Waterton along with about a dozen others and waited. After listening to Live ATC a while longer, I decided it had mellowed enough, and that if we were just smart, and left enough spacing in front of us, we'd get in. I knew if we just got in the RIPON to FISKE loop, we'd make it. Well, as others have said, we would have great spacing, then someone would cut us off. I'd tell my wife, "that guy just screwed all of us"... I think we did about 5 laps before getting in and parked by 7:30pm. It was annoying, but I felt everyone was doing a god job of being safe and the controllers were doing what they could.
2016 was worse... same weather scenario but a gear up landing or two compiled it even worse. in 2016 I was scared, this year I was just annoyed that the rule breakers got in while th rest of us continued to do laps.
My 2 cents on the problem:... while listening to Live ATC, I heard the 9/27 tower telling people to "roll to the next hard surface". It seems the grass was quite soft from all the rain, so they couldn't clear the runway as fast as normal. That seems to explain the longer spacing... but I could be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbalmos
Absolutely no offense meant, but that?s part of the problem. 2300/135 is for planes who CANNOT maintain 1800/90. NOT because it is more convenient.
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This is not true. The NOTAM simply says "Faster planes use 2300/135kts", RV's count as faster planes, and it's usually less hectic up there.
Last year, we flew in Sunday morning and it was butter.... Absolutely perfect. Just have to be aware, that 2 days of IFR prior to when you want to get in is going to cause a lot of people trying to get in as soon as VFR conditions prevail. I was ready for it.
__________________
John Walker
RV-10 N265WD
"Miss Whiskey Delta"
BPE IO-540, FULL EFII
KMYF, San Diego, Ca.
KEOS, Neosho, MO
Crew Chief
Grove Aero Super Legacy Reno Racer,
twin turbo, IO-540,
full EFII management system!
Race Coordinator STOL Drag coming to Reno, 2019
"so I got that going for me... which is nice."
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07-31-2018, 03:38 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brookshire, TX
Posts: 1,036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluelabel
This is not true. The NOTAM simply says "Faster planes use 2300/135kts", RV's count as faster planes, and it's usually less hectic up there.
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But the prefatory phrase for that is "For aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots."
That said, when I was out there Monday morning, ATC began asking anyone capable of doing 135 to hold at 2300' to cut down on the clutter. I think it was a good decision, and it helped to clear out the holds in a slightly more organized fashion; they were clearing out the high holds first, then the low ones.
As a final note, I was also a member of the Watertown refugee crew, we probably sat in the FBO together at some point.
__________________
Philip
-8 fuselage in progress (remember when I thought the wing kit had a lot of parts? HAHAHAHAHA)
http://rv.squawk1200.net
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07-31-2018, 04:20 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 621
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Safety trumps comfort
I can comfortably operate my RV-7A at 90 knots. However, when you have a Cub ahead of you barely doing 70, an Extra that cuts in high and fast from above and then S-turns, you have aircraft to your left and then one on the right - 90 knots and 1800 feet gives you very little energy and virtually no airspace to escape. I found that situation (on Sunday at 1600) very uncomfortable.
I may have been part of the problem at 0705 on Monday at 135 knots and 2300 feet, but I'll do the same thing next year if conditions warrant.
__________________
Krea Ellis
Locust Grove, GA
DA20-A1 "Princess Amelia" - gone home to Amelia Island
RV-7A Phase 2
RV-10 under construction at Synergy Air South
Last edited by KatanaPilot : 07-31-2018 at 05:02 PM.
Reason: added clarifying text
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07-31-2018, 06:28 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bay Pines, FL (based @ KCLW)
Posts: 1,955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N546RV
As a final note, I was also a member of the Watertown refugee crew, we probably sat in the FBO together at some point.
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Thank you.
I had a good laugh over the refugee comment. But you are correct. 
I did some time there after my first Ripon attempt.
Enjoyed the 2-sided fuel station.
Update: Sorry, I was at the other refugee camp at KUNU, Dodge County just north of Watertown.
__________________
Danny "RoadRunner" Landry
Morphed RV7(formally 7A), N20DL, PnP Pilot
1190+ hours
2019 Donation Paid
Last edited by roadrunner20 : 08-01-2018 at 10:05 AM.
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07-31-2018, 07:36 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brookshire, TX
Posts: 1,036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner20
Thank you.
I had a good laugh over the refugee comment. But you are correct. 
I did some time there after my first Ripon attempt.
Enjoyed the 2-sided fuel station.
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I bought gas at Watertown three times on Saturday. We got in Friday after the FBO had shut down, so first top off wasn't until the morning. And then, after both failed Saturday attempts, I got a little splash from them when I got back.
It was kinda amusing - the lady in the FBO liked to greet everyone on Unicom when they first called in, and by the end of the day it got pretty cheeky. When I left for my second attempt she wished me luck, and when I made my first call an hour or so later, I got a broad Wisconsin "4TE, welcome back!!!"
For all the frustrations of not getting in, there was a whole lot of positive GA community flavor to the experience.
__________________
Philip
-8 fuselage in progress (remember when I thought the wing kit had a lot of parts? HAHAHAHAHA)
http://rv.squawk1200.net
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07-31-2018, 10:49 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Foley, Al
Posts: 563
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Record
I just was thinking.... I wonder what the world record would be for the highest number of aircraft holding/trying to land at a given airport might be. Hard to imagine more than Sundays afternoon arrivals. I'd guess there were at least 150 or more airplanes at Green lake/Rush lake/Ripon/Fisk and others that were incoming and close but not at one of the arrival points yet. If this is a record then maybe some congratulations are in order for all the participants! :-)
__________________
Paul Gray
Foley, Alabama
N729PG..... 450+ hrs
RV 7A, Lycoming 0 320 D1A, Sensenich FP propeller
pilotforfun2001@yahoo.com
VAF supporter $$$
Last edited by Paul 5r4 : 07-31-2018 at 10:55 PM.
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08-01-2018, 05:01 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Grand Junction, CO
Posts: 80
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A simple solution for part of it
I've read all 25 pages in hopes of seeing someone make the suggestion I will below but no luck.
The problems were many and well documented by others. We were 30 southwest of RIPON Sunday mid day and diverted to DLL after listening to approach and watching ADS-B. In 51 years of flying GA airplanes, this was the most dangerous situation I have encountered and chose not to get into it. We then monitored com and ADS-B from the ground for several hours and finally opted to spend the night at DLL to try again early Monday morning. Monday we did three trips around Green Lake and decided to divert to Y50 for breakfast because the mess from RIPON to FISKE remained. It was clear that with ATC sending many poorly spaced FISKE gaggles back to RIPON, the same groups would appear again and again at FISKE with the same result. The odds of breaking into that from our hold at Green Lake were low and risky. On top of that, new arrivals following the normal RIPON start were literally preventing any aircraft holding at Green Lake from proceeding to RIPON because the RIPON-FISKE corridor was saturated. But finally we were able to get into OSH about noon Monday once the traffic subsided.
While it does not solve every problem (like pilots failing to read the notam or mass arrivals), the following suggested procedure makes it a lot safer and would have prevented the very real possibility of a mid air last week:
1. All VFR arrivals should begin by holding at Green Lake at either of the two published altitudes and speeds. Green Lake is very large, easily seen from a distance and with the published counterclockwise hold allows a large number of aircraft to enter the hold either directly or at a 45 degree angle like joining downwind. The current arrival start, RIPON, is small and harder to find and results in aircraft sometimes closing head on as they arrive from all points of the compass while trying to find RIPON and dodging traffic. A hold arrival at Green Lake greatly reduces this risk by increasing the amount of airspace involved and making the geometry of joining very simple.
2. A small FAA contingent at the east end of Green Lake would meter aircraft from the hold and release them to RIPON based on requirements from FISKE. This allows them to set whatever spacing is needed by FISKE and can be accomplished with the same "rock your wings" commands used at FISKE. Spacing can be changed instantaneously by controllers as needed and pilots at Green Lake in the hold only have to follow the aircraft ahead and not worry about anything other than safe distance while holding. Spacing to RIPON and to FISKE is taken care of by the metering controllers, not pilots. True, with lots of planes and some bad luck you may have to orbit awhile until your aircraft is released to RIPON but the process would be orderly and controlled unlike what happened this year.
3. Green Lake would have its own ATIS and com freq and the ATIS would announce holding is in progress if things are backed up or no holding is in progress and arriving aircraft should proceed from Green Lake to RIPON. This procedure completely eliminates the traffic backup that occurred last week.
4. The notam would contain the above procedure with a caution to leave the hold and divert to any of several listed airports nearby that have fuel and parking in the event of low fuel or a sick passenger.
As I said at the start, this does not solve every problem but does remove a huge amount of risk and confusion that many of us saw on Saturday, Sunday and Monday morning. By taking spacing requirements out of the hands of pilots who are in some cases overwhelmed and placing them into the hands of trained controllers, each of us can focus on the jobs we are best prepared to do.
__________________
Bill Marvel, ATP, A&P/IA
Grand Junction, CO
RV-8A N751MB -1700 hours, sold
RV-14A 140134, N465MM - 670 hours and climbing
Dues paid every year
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08-01-2018, 07:26 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 804
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Yes, Thrashing it is and Queueing Theory makes my (OLDER) head hurt! :-)
Decades ago, I would stare at performance monitors to "become one with the machine (computer)". The impact of multiple "servers" was internalized. The impact of reaching the threshold (typically virtual memory) limit was internalized.
It is with those decade-old experiences that I think about this situation.
The issue it not a lot of planes heading to Airventure/Oshkosh. The issue is a lot of planes getting to the SAME place at the same time and exceeding the capacity of that area (or server if you will). More structure and preprocessing helps in these situations. Then throw in bad actors and other factors and you have a problem.
Keep the good ideas coming as I am sure that people directly involved in finding a solution are paying attention.
But again, there is NO SILVER BULLET. And real analysis/solutions finding will take more time and effort than the (great) dialog here on this forum.
As to some academic resources, hmmmmm ..... Maybe I *can* get a few Deans/Department Chairs/Professors in Engineering (or some parts of the Business School) thinking about this. They return in a few days! :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fl-mike
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__________________
James E. Clark
Columbia, SC
RV6 Flying, RV6A Cowling
APRS
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08-02-2018, 06:37 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ramona, CA
Posts: 2,370
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My son put together this video of our Sunday attempt and Monday arrival.
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