Fun times at OSH arrival

[DougJ]

Ask at check in next time. I had to leave Thursday morning and bought Monday thru Wednesday passes. I asked about getting to the plane Thursday morning and was told I could stop by the booth Wednesday for a ?get out of jail free card?. Basically allows you on the grounds for a limited time so you can climb in your plane and go. Worked without a hitch.

Since this was the first time I didn?t camp I?ve never been off the airfield before, the issue dawned on me on Monday (we got there Saturday) and that?s when I asked.

Doug

[vic syracuse]

I can?t say enough times that we have been listening, observing, and discussing all of the issues this week. For those of you who think and write that the EAA doesn?t care about ALL members, I assure you that nothing is farther from the truth. We have a real leader in Jack that cares about all aspects of aviation, as well as being a current home builder himself. Some will always believe what you want to believe but many of us are here at OSH for a long time and have about an hour of free time all week due to so many meetings that are centric to our members. There is a lot of work going on for you. Just take a look at a picture of OSH from 10 years ago and one today. It?s amazing.

Please be patient, and try to keep the venom down. 😄

Vic

[airguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gene

My beef was getting out. I did not purchase an all week pass because a family member was on Hospice Care, so I purchased Monday and Tuesday passes only. I tried to get to my Rv10 in HBP early Wednesday morning and I had to be detained at the gate until I was accompanied by security guard on a moped! Really! I would like Vic Syracuse or someone with a voice to check into passes so builder/pilots can get to their plane for departure. This held me up over 30 minutes. He passed Tuesday and had to get to funeral home for arrangements. At least security could have showed up in a John Deere Gator so at least I could have rode, my bags carried and made up for lost time while waiting at the gate for security. Instead, he rode his moped along my side as fast as I could carry all my bags at a fast walking pace, but not once was there an offer to help carry a bag or two. I guess we EAA members and builders at HBP are criminals!

I had the opposite experience with getting out, I'm hoping yours was just a fluke. We stayed in a rented house a couple blocks behind Basler, when we flew in and I was registering my plane I asked about needing the buy a wristband for our planned early Wed morning departure, they said "No problem, not needed, thanks for coming!" When we walked in the gate Wednesday morning we were still wearing Tuesday's wristbands and carrying our bags - I told the guy at the gate we just needed on the grounds long enough to load up and fly out, he said "No problem, thanks for coming!"

Originally Posted by vic syracuse

I can’t say enough times that we have been listening, observing, and discussing all of the issues this week. For those of you who think and write that the EAA doesn’t care about ALL members, I assure you that nothing is farther from the truth. We have a real leader in Jack that cares about all aspects of aviation, as well as being a current home builder himself. Some will always believe what you want to believe but many of us are here at OSH for a long time and have about an hour of free time all week due to so many meetings that are centric to our members. There is a lot of work going on for you. Just take a look at a picture of OSH from 10 years ago and one today. It’s amazing.

Please be patient, and try to keep the venom down. ��

Vic

Vic - for those of us that have been to Oshkosh before, especially several times, it's quite obvious that "something snapped" and it was not a gradual process. Weather and attendance deviations can be planned for and have been seen (and handled) before. This was a human-factors failure of some type, and it smells like "Not my problem" mentality, and that's what creates the hostility. I love this event. I hate to see it degraded by the scene that occurred this year on arrival. I want to see it corrected, because I want to come back and bring friends and family to it. But I WILL NOT, unless the root cause is identified and corrected, and made public. I hope the board can see this through to correct course of action.

[Kenny Gene]

Yes, I still had my wristband on from Tuesday show, thinking this would help tell the story. They did not care. I have the courtesy van number, good for the week of OSH, 920-230-7906, which I called many times prior to getting to the field and while standing at the north gate waiting for Mr. Moped Security, but no answer. This could be improved upon also.

I did everything I could think of, as I've been there 9 years previously in a row, but absolutely they were not going to let me go in. However, I've also purchased a week pass instead of daily. Truly, I had just told the North gate folks, I was going regardless and they could send the law after me, but I needed to get going, then just as I said this and turned to walk in, Mr. Security showed up on the moped.

Vic, can you please post an contact name, email address or street address so we as individuals can send comments about this years experience for improvements?

Sincerely,

Kenny Gene
Wichita Kansas area
Rv7a 294TC AWC 09-07 690 sold 11-11
Rv10 484TC AWC 10-10 775 hours flying

[AMillin]

I flew over Monday morning. I knew the weather had been bad over the weekend. I had no idea what the traffic was going to be.



I was in a descent from crossing Lake Michigan and listening to the ATIS. The holding patterns around both lakes were saturated. As I got below 4,500 the altitude filtering came off and my moving map lit up with traffic. I was dumbfounded. The Fisk controller was trying to send aircraft in as fast as he could, but they were already stacked up and arriving faster than the airport could take them.

Then I heard some bickering on the ATC frequency. "This guy isn't flying the hold properly." "I just got cutoff." "Hey, I have been holding here for 68 minutes!" "I've been holding for 75 minutes." It was a high stress environment and nerves were definitely on edge.

Then I heard two calls in succession "Fuel Emergency." ATC brought them to the front of the line and let them in.

My lovely bride was upset. We were going into a small area that had 200+ airplanes - more arriving than leaving -- hazy day -- long wait to just get into the back of the line. If it isn't fun, don't do it. My wife said "I want to go home." It was an intelligent reaction and we left.

I made it in Wednesday morning. No holding. Right to Ripon and in to 36R.

I got some idea of how bad things had been. It seems it was worse than I imagined.

FWIW, to me the logical solution is to have a reservation system. I CAN NOT imagine implementing a system on that scale and having it work smoothly. I think it would create more problems. Logical, not practical.

ATC knew the system was saturated. They didn't have an answer and some of the things they tried just threw more gas on the fire.

My thought is they need a way to cut the number of aircraft down in a fair and even way. I like the tail number idea. I pulled the FAA Registration Database from 2017. I removed the commercial aircraft. I reduced the list down to the last letter or number in the tail number. E.g. If it was listed as N1234B, I took the "B". Everyone knows the last character in their own tail number.

I found what percentage of the fleet the tail numbers were based on their last letter. If ATC decided things were saturated and they needed to shed load, they would go to a 2, 3, 4 group solution. Not in the current group, you must stay clear by X miles. Groups rotate every X minutes until open arrivals can resume.

Put a chart in the NOTAM.

[jclark]

I (another EAA Board Member) had to depart Airventure early for another Convention, but rest assured that as Vic is saying, this is a BIG DEAL for us, the Board. This NOT something that we are ignoring or taking lightly.

This will be addressed with much thought and analysis.

There is no need to make claims or assumptions about Board members without having direct dialog first. We really are decent people with hearts, minds, intentions, and actions in what most (I hope) feel is the right place. :-)

Although not in the "furball" this time, I have flown into Airventure many times, including solo as well as in mass arrivals (RV). Under the RIGHT conditions, mass arrivals can add to efficiency and safety. Weather is always something we must accommodate. The (NEW) drainage of the field can be overloaded when a LOT of rain happens in a short time. A single person cutting into the line at just the WRONG time can mess things up for a lot of people in a hurry. Lower ceilings can merge in a far too diverse sets of speeds. Loss of civility can have its adverse impacts as well.

I say this to say that there is no single silver bullet and we must take the time to understand the true root causes. There are many factors involved in what happened.

Originally Posted by vic syracuse

We hear you. We have been meeting on it and are meeting again @ 6:45 again this am.
It is no easy fix, but very smart people are involved (NOT including myself in that part of the statement) and I have the highest confidence some real changes and good willl come out of it.

Until then, it does no one any good to diss any other aviators for being here. This is the worlds largest Aviation event, and yes it was started by EAA, it it is super inclusive. Many of us started flying in certified stuff, and MANY of us still fly both.

TOGETHER we will continue to grow, and everyone has a responsibility to be apart of the solution, including reading the notams and understanding the implications of a weather forecast.

I?m sure the NOTAM will be SUPER IMPORTANT reading next year. 😀

Hang in there. This is supposed to be FUN!

Vic

[sirlegin]

Originally Posted by jclark

I (another EAA Board Member) had to depart Airventure early for another Convention, but rest assured that as Vic is saying, this is a BIG DEAL for us, the Board. This NOT something that we are ignoring or taking lightly.

This will be addressed with much thought and analysis.

There is no need to make claims or assumptions about Board members without having direct dialog first. We really are decent people with hearts, minds, intentions, and actions in what most (I hope) feel is the right place. :-)

Although not in the "furball" this time, I have flown into Airventure many times, including solo as well as in mass arrivals (RV). Under the RIGHT conditions, mass arrivals can add to efficiency and safety. Weather is always something we must accommodate. The (NEW) drainage of the field can be overloaded when a LOT of rain happens in a short time. A single person cutting into the line at just the WRONG time can mess things up for a lot of people in a hurry. Lower ceilings can merge in a far too diverse sets of speeds. Loss of civility can have its adverse impacts as well.

I say this to say that there is no single silver bullet and we must take the time to understand the true root causes. There are many factors involved in what happened.

This was my first visit to Oshkosh and I flew my 9A, and held for 2 1/2 hours after a 6 1/2 hour flight. As I didn't know any better I was glad I practiced slow flight and following railway lines and watched numerous you tube videos on arrivals to Ripon and read and memorized the NOTAM. It was an absolutely amazing experience for me. I noticed all the deviations of some but people will be people. My main beef taxiing to HBP was waiting on a mass of Mooney's to the point my oil temperature got up into the RED.
What a great show put on by the EAA!!. I had tickets through Wednesday and had no problem entering the show on Thursday to get in my plane and fly home. I see what everyone is saying about the giant cluster but I have faith this scenario will be sorted out for next year. Live and learn. Despite the problems this to me is still the greatest show on earth.

[rv7charlie]

As I said in my earlier post, I've had my gripes with EAA's posture in the (now distant) past. But just listening to the 'data' (personal testimonials) being supplied in this thread, I doubt much of the blame should go to EAA for the traffic fiasco.

I'd be surprised if we ever hear the full story. But... Someone mentioned being told about FAA 'staffing issues'. My money is on the limited staffing issue being driven from somewhere far above even the FAA's management. Anyone remember the ATC 'privatization' push that was tried twice and failed twice in the last two years, and is being pushed yet again? I, for one, have no doubt that vengeance could be a motive.

Charlie

[chrispratt]

Originally Posted by DougJ

Ask at check in next time. I had to leave Thursday morning and bought Monday thru Wednesday passes. I asked about getting to the plane Thursday morning and was told I could stop by the booth Wednesday for a “get out of jail free card”. Basically allows you on the grounds for a limited time so you can climb in your plane and go. Worked without a hitch...

Doug

Thanks for this. I didn't know about the "get out of jail free card". I've had the same problem that Kenny and others complained about - not having a pass for the day I am leaving. It is ridiculous. And that courtesy van that runs around is pretty much a hit or miss proposition especially when you need it. I've flown in to OSH 9 times and the biggest hassle and most disappointment have always centered on: a) getting to the airport terminal to pick up a rental car, and b) getting through the gate to go home. I've sent messages to EAA about this most years in the past, but I've yet to see a response.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gene

I got lucky on getting in, no problems Monday about noon, but it is certainly a **** shoot.

My beef was getting out. I did not purchase an all week pass because a family member was on Hospice Care, so I purchased Monday and Tuesday passes only. I tried to get to my Rv10 in HBP early Wednesday morning and I had to be detained at the gate until I was accompanied by security guard on a moped! Really! I would like Vic Syracuse or someone with a voice to check into passes so builder/pilots can get to their plane for departure. This held me up over 30 minutes. He passed Tuesday and had to get to funeral home for arrangements. At least security could have showed up in a John Deere Gator so at least I could have rode, my bags carried and made up for lost time while waiting at the gate for security. Instead, he rode his moped along my side as fast as I could carry all my bags at a fast walking pace, but not once was there an offer to help carry a bag or two. I guess we EAA members and builders at HBP are criminals!

This is my 10th year in a row after building and parts of the program is getting to be a hassle! I'm hopeful for a few needed improvements and some common sense.

Kenny Gene
Wichita Kansas area
Rv7a 294TC AWC 09-07 690 hours sold 11-11
Rv10 484TC AWC 10-10 775 hours flying

While this is not advertised, there has been (at least for the last 7 years) an option to ask for a “get out of jail free” card that will get you back in the gate on departure morning. You got to ask for it the evening before at the HB headquarters. Have done it many times.

Also the welcome wagon is a blessing ran by volunteers!
I am going to try and talk my chapter into funding/donating another one so maybe we can have another one running next year.