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  #41  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:29 AM
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1001001 1001001 is offline
 
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Location: Just Minutes from KBVI!
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None of this sounds like any fun at all, and a lot of it sounds downright unsafe. If there is no mechanism other than goodwill and personal responsibility to discourage unsafe or impolite flying/line cutting, then how would we expect it to get better? Publishing a NOTAM/set of rules does little good if people don't feel they are bound to follow it. Hoping for good weather to smooth the arrival flow is not a real plan.

I would not want to risk my skin or my airplane in a mess like what has been described here. Driving seems like a less frustrating and safer option for me when I go in the future. Maybe just fly to a regional stop and rent a car or hail an uber.

I like to think I am a decent pilot but jam me and a hundred other "decent" pilots into a situation we are not truly familiar with, and compound it with varying levels of experience and patience, and my performance will degrade along with everyone else's. Not a good recipe. I commend those who decided to bail and come back later.
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  #42  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:33 AM
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sbalmos sbalmos is offline
 
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Was actually thinking the same thing Bryan, feeder routes and more metering points. Plus many of us have ADSB now. Have ATC start using it. Forget the Big Brother arguments for a moment. ATC can see along the route who is cutting in or has gotten too close, and cherry pick out the offenders.
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  #43  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:40 AM
odens_14 odens_14 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Alexandria, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer View Post
Unknown why ATC wanted everyone in trail with 1-mile separation. AT times, they asked for 2-miles. Is this an ATC slowdown? NOTAM says 1/2 mile in trail.
my perspective from the outside looking in via live atc. They were getting too many planes and needed to *try* and slow them down. I can understand how it would be frustrating to hear all planes being sent away from FISK but I never heard the tower slow down at all, so it's not like the runways were just wide open and they were sending people away for fun. My guess is the tower was the ones who told them no more for a few minutes.

I can't see what they could possibly do different, there is just no way to land as many planes that were making the attempt Sunday into 2 or 3 runways; when the weather gets bad especially on opening weekend I think that's just the way it is. if you can land 150 planes per hour but there's 200 planes per hour showing up, there is nothing that can be done and as time goes on that extra 50 keep stacking up.

With regards to putting controllers at Ripon, I think that would just push the cluster back a little further, the capacity issue at the runways is what is going to cause bottlenecks wherever the starting point is.

For our group specifically, does anyone know what it would take to get our own slot blocked off? "RV's to Oshkosh" and get our own 2 hr slot on Sunday?

While I miss some of the early festivities this is exactly why I prefer the second weekend since I've started flying in, 3 years now I've never had to turn back or hold on Friday morning; and as a bonus I only have to burn one vacation day.
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Last edited by odens_14 : 07-24-2018 at 06:50 AM.
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  #44  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:52 AM
WA85 WA85 is offline
 
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Location: Royse City, TX
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I have been flying with ADSB for about 3 years now and I have seen a trend of pilots using ADSB to purposely cut in front of other traffic. There seems to be a perception that if there is a safe gap in between two aircraft, then its OK to use ADSB to surgically insert one's self, despite the hazard that it may create. I see this almost every weekend at fly in breakfasts or where there is an arrival procedure, i.e... SERFI, Triple Tree, Oshkosh. In the old days, we didn't know what we didn't know about other traffic, we used a little more common sense. Now it seems we use ADSB to purposely fly closer to others in an effort to get ahead of them. A few weeks ago I watched a Cessna driver valiantly try to dive from 5000 ft to try to cut in front of me to the downwind entry, no radio calls, no common sense. Later in the breakfast line, I heard the same pilot bragging about being at Vne to try to get in front of that RV....
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  #45  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:58 AM
RyanS RyanS is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Darwin, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odens_14 View Post
...what it would take to get our own slot blocked off? "RV's to Oshkosh" and get our own 2 hr slot on Sunday?

While I miss some of the early festivities this is exactly why I prefer the second weekend...
I watched the mess yesterday and for the first time I was glad I was sitting at my computer and not up flying. It was insane. The only way I would attempt to come in the first weekend would be with the "RV's to Oshkosh". With so many RV's flying now, you'd think it would be possible to put together.
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  #46  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:59 AM
aerovin aerovin is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lincoln, CA
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From where I sat (for 5+ hours), if the controllers would break out specific aircraft from the line at Fiske to get their spacing with arrivals, the flow would work. The controllers would often just say ?STOP STOP STOP? and turn everyone out of the line so no one got in, just compounding things. They told the ones they broke out to rejoin at Ripon when there was already a good line up for 10 miles southwest of Ripon. The airshow was at Ripon. ATC needed to ?control? it. The pilots cutting in made it much worse and unsafe. After thinking about it over a beer, never again for me. I?ll go to plan B, thank you.
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  #47  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:01 AM
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Jesse Jesse is offline
 
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I?ve flown in probably 8-10 times and will absolutely do it again. This year things were compounded because of the weather delaying all arrivals. I have landed and waited for the holds to clear once before, but usually we get right in. I would consider this year an anomaly. It is disappointing that it seemed like the ones that got in were the ones that didn?t follow instructions, but there will always be some of those. The procedure, as I see it, is adequate. There are probably over 10,000 planes on the ground here and not a single accident in all the holding. See and avoid has worked because most people read and follow the notam and they just put up with people cutting in and doing things wrong without making a big deal about it. I think the controllers did the best they could with what they had. I congratulate the controllers and the pilots for not having any mid-airs and am sorry for those who didn?t get in. It?s a great event and worth the hassle, IMHO. Blaming anybody for the trouble doesn?t do anything productive. Let?s just all continue to do what we can to be safe and suck up our pride when somebody is inconsiderate or ignores the procedure. I?m sure we?ve all done something wrong in our flying careers.
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  #48  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:13 AM
moosepileit moosepileit is offline
 
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When it was done by the trained and approved originators, "merging and spacing" was for IFR at ATC's approval. It was not just eyeballed, you could watch the closure and range and see the speeds.

See and avoid and VFR altitudes can only do so much if you think your ADSB picture buys you a passing right or short cut.

Unintended consequences in aviation are a bit thornier than in many pursuits. Folks turned off to flying into Oshkosh in these threads is an example.

Spent time Sun and Mon listening and watching at 9 threshold and the show.

ATC did seem to say, "we're shut off" often, then just one runway. It would help if the patch from tower to arrivals giving and taking planes could be heard or explained by an insider.

When traffic hits a critical point, it stinks, period. The Sat and Sunday weather did not help.
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Last edited by moosepileit : 07-24-2018 at 07:17 AM.
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  #49  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:18 AM
Wiley Wiley is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brownwood TX
Posts: 87
Default Sunday evening

I was in the mess Sunday late afternoon for two rounds then diverting to Appleton. I am amazed at human nature. If I had a Cardinal pull around us at 50yards distance at any other time, it would be catastrophically unheard of. Discussions would be had. Tempers would flare at the FBO. All because it is obviously unsafe, illegal, and well below any personal minimums. Just because this is OSH, it seems acceptable or understandable given weather, ATC, get-there-itis, etc. What's worse, I stayed at it for one more round with the system obviously not working. Where were my convictions to personal minimums? Like road rage, the answer is obvious in retrospect. I can't see flying here again at this time.
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  #50  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:56 AM
jclark jclark is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 804
Default We (EAA Board) hear you (and many other flyers)

Being the Board member referenced, I can say the following:

We just spent the opening of the board meeting discussing this and will have a lot of people working to understand the root causes, propose solutions and establish action plans.

This is a BIG DEAL for us!

When there is something I can share, I will do so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer View Post
This is the 19th AirVenture that I have flown my RV to. IF I experience another year like this one, I will no longer fly my RV to AirVenture.

I put 2.6 hours on my hobbs meter going from KUNU to KOSH. It should not take 2.6 hours to fly from 41-nautical miles even at 90 kts NOTAM arrival.

Unknown why ATC wanted everyone in trail with 1-mile separation. AT times, they asked for 2-miles. Is this an ATC slowdown? NOTAM says 1/2 mile in trail.

My APRS track shows 2.2-hours. The other 0.4 hours on the hobbs must be taxi time as there was a long wait sitting waiting for ATC to let us cross RWY 27.

Here is what the ground track looked like on aprs.fi.



You may still be able to see my track on AirPRS.com if the site has not gone dark.

This is what the AirPRS track looks like:


This is what traffic looked like toward the end of the hold that started at 7:50 AM.



I did report my negative arrival experience to an EAA Board Member and promised to follow up with an email. I have a friend that is working ATC here and plan to inquire what his understanding is of all the bad experiences being reported this year.

One BIG mess up today was the B1 morning fly by. They closed the airport to arrives during the schedule B1 time slot. It did not show on time. When it showed up almost one hour later, they closed the airport. This screw up is why I think I flew so long in a holding pattern. In my opinion, when the schedule time was missed, another one should not have been given.

I may be the only one that does not mind holding for the rescheduled mass arrivals but not for my tax dollars being wasted to make noise and causing me to spend more money to fly a holding pattern.
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