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07-23-2018, 09:22 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: KCCB
Posts: 195
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I believe a huge part is pilots not reading or thinking the NOTAM does not apply to them.
Also as more and more controllers hit mandatory retirement the generation taking over does not want to work the problem they try to ignore it or pass the buck. Listing to the arrivals that was obvious. They have no idea how to work the problem so turn everyone left to start over. But that just compounded the problem.
__________________
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6,flying 
Once an Airman always an Airman (SSgt 78-82)
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
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07-23-2018, 09:28 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N64GH
the generation taking over does not want to work the problem they try to ignore it or pass the buck. Listing to the arrivals that was obvious. They have no idea how to work the problem so turn everyone left to start over. But that just compounded the problem.
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"Must be the young'uns fault"... Seriously, that's rich...
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07-23-2018, 10:12 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: KCCB
Posts: 195
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I know folks in ATC and they could tell you story after story after endless story of how many (not all) of the younger controllers do not work the problem but default to the easy out which usually does not solve the problem. However I layed the lions share of the blame squarely on the pilots.
__________________
Mike Divan
N64GH - RV6,flying 
Once an Airman always an Airman (SSgt 78-82)
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!
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07-23-2018, 10:35 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 186
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The Fisk controller this morning was amazing. Same **** yesterday but he had everyone hold at green lake do not pass ripon until they cleaned out rush lake. Once rush was clean they open ripon to Fisk. When rush lake filled back up they closed ripon had people hold at green lake. They did for hours and it worked well except the yo-yos that cut in, came in when closed, and the ones that don?t know how to hold.
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07-23-2018, 10:49 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LSGY
Posts: 3,198
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Stats
It would be interesting to see and compare the stats on number of landings.
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07-23-2018, 10:58 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N64GH
I know folks in ATC and they could tell you story after story after endless story of how many (not all) of the younger controllers do not work the problem but default to the easy out which usually does not solve the problem. However I layed the lions share of the blame squarely on the pilots.
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And I could tell you story after story about how older engineers and managers are stubborn and stuck in old ways of thinking. But I wouldn't ascribe that to an entire generation because that's simplistic scapegoating. I blame it squarely on people's laziness...
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07-24-2018, 04:53 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 621
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First time flying in to OSH this year. Flew from the Atlanta area with a neighbor pilot and made two fuel stops. Got to Ripon area as the weather improved to find Green Lake over saturated. Tried a few times to enter the gaggle but I had neither the patience nor the tolerance for what I saw going on at the lake. Finally made the decision to divert to ATW.
Tied down for the night, but went back the next morning with my son. One turn around Green Lake, one breakout and reenter at Ripon and then in to the yellow dot at 36L. 2300? and 135 kts was a lot easier and provided more energy for breakout options. Good learning experience for both of us and really enjoyed watching him fly the new plane.
__________________
Krea Ellis
Locust Grove, GA
DA20-A1 "Princess Amelia" - gone home to Amelia Island
RV-7A Phase 2
RV-10 under construction at Synergy Air South
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07-24-2018, 05:47 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Liberty Twp, OH
Posts: 641
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Absolutely no offense meant, but that?s part of the problem. 2300/135 is for planes who CANNOT maintain 1800/90. NOT because it is more convenient.
Weren?t the Bonanzas? mass arrival rescheduled to Sunday evening also?
The storms, the B1, ATC who just kept telling everyone to go away (seriously, how hard is it to selectively say ?you come in, you next 5 next to him you lose go away? rather than telling all 30+ in line from Ripon to go away)... this was a complete mess. Been flying here 8 years, and I don?t know how you improve the process of ensuring people read AND FOLLOW the NOTAM, not just the convenient parts. But this was the first year that I actually saw what I would consider airborne road rage. People coming up the conga line KNOWINGLY AND WILLINGLY misspaced or not in line, thinking ATC will call out the other guy and let them in, or that the breakout and hold didn?t apply to them.
Maybe it?s also time to end the mass arrivals and other shutdowns (flyovers) if there are events (weather) that cause super saturation. But we RV pilots CAN and MUST do better.
At least there haven?t been any closures from runway accidents... Yet...
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Scott Balmos - RV-9A N112SB
Cincinnati, OH, KHAO
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07-24-2018, 05:58 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,145
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You can add me to the list of folks that won't be coming back any time soon. We tried to get in Sunday night, made several laps around Green Lake before it became obvious that it just wasn't going to happen, and diverted to KDLL for the night. Next morning, 1.2 hrs trying to make the 45 nm to Ripon and join in, again the holds were saturated and then the field closed. Back to KDLL again, wait 30 min and top off fuel, then spent another 1.8 in the air before finally getting in. The entire time was spent flying loose unbriefed formation flight with untrained rookies, and that's something I don't enjoy.
I don't know what the EAA/ATC can, or will, do to fix this. But this year cured me of coming to Oshkosh. Y'all can have it.
__________________
Greg Niehues - SEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2020 dues paid 
N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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07-24-2018, 06:02 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 114
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Oshkosh mess
We were n the oshkosh mess, about a 2H:45M hold. I would avocate for some changes next year. One thing that comes to mind is a controller at ripon so that it can be actually shut down and allow for spacing into fiske. I think we will be thinking twice about flying to kosh again, or at least when we are flying into kosh. In the 10 years or so i have been involved, ripon has always felt like the-least safe point, often planes cutting in on top of one another. It seems like a well known problem area, i even have a friend who equips his rv with cameras to show others the craziness at ripon. Perhaps a better suggestion would be multiple feeder routes to ripon with multiple controllers. That is not going to stop people holding the wrong direction around the lake or coming in with low fuel, but might be a safer environment.
Bryan
Last edited by bryanflood : 07-24-2018 at 06:29 AM.
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