Buying partially complete plane

ty1295 · #1 08-30-2011, 07:03 AM

How is the 51% rule affected if you buy a partially completed airplane.

It seems to me one main advantage of building your own is the ability to work on your own plane when done without a full blown A&P. Does the process change in terms of FAA or even Vans if you buy someone elses unfinished kit to get started (and save a **** bucks maybe) and if so at one point?

Jeff

Mel · #2 08-30-2011, 07:16 AM

The "Major Portion" rule simply means that the aircraft must be built by "amateurs". i.e. Not for hire.
Anyone can maintain or modify an experimental amateur-built aircraft. The only restriction is the annual condition inspection. This must be done by an A&P or the repairman certificate holder for that particular aircraft.
If you purchase an incomplete amateur-built aircraft, be sure to acquire the "builder's log" along with the project showing that the aircraft has been built by amateurs.

To obtain the repairman certificate, you are not required to have built 51% yourself. You just have to show that you built enough of the aircraft to competently accomplish the condition inspection.

ty1295 · #3 08-30-2011, 07:53 AM

Thanks for making that clear.

Garwin · #4 05-23-2018, 10:21 AM

The builder crated up the kit and moved it 25+ years ago to a dry area. Lost the builder logs before I got the kit and now found out that I needed the logs. What can I do to recreate the logs. Van?s does have some invoices dating to the mid 80?s which includes the 1984 update plans with the CN-2 update. It?s an RV-3A kit with the fuselage in the canoe stage and most of the assemblies (wings,tail,flaps etc) close to finished. I am torn between selling the kit as my mentor/partner had backed out of building and financial help due to personal problems. Or sitting on it for a couple of years until I can get started on this project. I have had it for sale but the question of builder logs and the wings seem to be a stopping point. Idea?s?
As this would be my first time building and I had emailed questions to Van?s before buying the kit, Logs did not hit my radar until 2weeks ago. Will a explanation of the kit and it?s progress, supported by Van?s invoices be enough?
Did I just buy scrap metal and an engine core? It came with a 0-235 Lycoming
Thanks in advance for your advice

DonFromTX · #5 05-23-2018, 10:47 AM

There exists no requirement for log books, I assume what you are missing is some proof that it was amateur built, which can be in many different forms.

Mel · #6 05-23-2018, 10:56 AM

This is what the inspector will be looking for. Taken from FAA Order 8130.2j:
b. Review Aircraft Records.
(1) Supporting Documentation for the Eligibility Statement.
(a)Review the builder’s documentation to verify it shows: 1 What was fabricated, assembled, and inspected. 2 Who performed these actions. 3 The date the activity was performed. 4 Where the activity was performed. 5 The methods used. 6 Any commercial assistance or education assistance used.
(b)Examples of documentation include:
1 The applicable Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist and detailed descriptions of the steps included in each of the listed tasks.
2 A comprehensive builder’s log that includes items such as drawings, engineering specifications, plans, references, handbooks, kit manufacturer’s data, photographs, video, documentation of commercial assistance used (including receipts), documentation of education assistance used, article inventories and histories, receipts, catalogs, and logbook entries.
(2) Review any documentation of in-process and pre-cover inspections.

Bcone1381 · #7 05-23-2018, 02:56 PM

Garwin, What can you do to re-create the logs? I would call the EAA with that question, but You may not be in bad shape.

How much of the kit is completed?

In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur built airworthiness certificate, 51% of the assembly and fabrication tasks must be done by an amateur builder. The burden of proof that the tasks were performed by an amateur builder is placed on the builder. If you do not have documentation via a build log, then proving those older tasks to be completed by an amateur may be difficult. But, your kit may have enough left to do to still have 51% of the fabrication and assembly tasks left to go. Realize that fabrication a part may take months, but assembling to the airframe may take minutes, and each task is worth one point.

A checklist that the FAA currently in use is Advisory Circular 20-27G. The FAA also has an 83 page long document (Lots of photos...easy read) called "Amateur Built Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (2009) Job Aid" that explains this for you.

If you go thru the checklist in about an hours time you could determine what is completed, what is left to go, and tally everything up to see if you are more than or less than 51%.

Sam Buchanan · #8 05-23-2018, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garwin

The builder crated up the kit and moved it 25+ years ago to a dry area. Lost the builder logs before I got the kit and now found out that I needed the logs. What can I do to recreate the logs. Van’s does have some invoices dating to the mid 80’s which includes the 1984 update plans with the CN-2 update. It’s an RV-3A kit with the fuselage in the canoe stage and most of the assemblies (wings,tail,flaps etc) close to finished. I am torn between selling the kit as my mentor/partner had backed out of building and financial help due to personal problems. Or sitting on it for a couple of years until I can get started on this project. I have had it for sale but the question of builder logs and the wings seem to be a stopping point. Idea’s?
As this would be my first time building and I had emailed questions to Van’s before buying the kit, Logs did not hit my radar until 2weeks ago. Will a explanation of the kit and it’s progress, supported by Van’s invoices be enough?
Did I just buy scrap metal and an engine core? It came with a 0-235 Lycoming
Thanks in advance for your advice

You need to find a local DAR (preferably the one that would be conducting the certification inspection) and discuss your situation and see if he is likely to issue a certificate. He can point out the details and paperwork you need to complete for the inspection. Most likely there is a way to make your project legal, but you need to be informed so all paperwork is in hand once the inspection occurs.

Having said all that, an early RV-3 project is going to be a challenge for a novice builder. If you enjoy an intensive journey into the building process then carry on. If you are more concerned with flying in a couple of years and don't want to 'reinvent the wheel' then a contemporary kit would be a more pleasant option.

Ed_Wischmeyer · #9 05-23-2018, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ty1295

It seems to me one main advantage of building your own is the ability to work on your own plane when done without a full blown A&P.

Not so. Anyone, that is, anyone can work on an experimental, amateur built aircraft and -- here's the important part -- return it to service. You, your wife, your neighbor, your kid, the mailman, your mother in law, anybody. Anybody at all. All that is required is an annual condition inspection by an A&P.

As for doing that annual condition inspection, that is a different skill set from building the plane. Just because you did all the riveting doesn't mean that you know squat about checking an engine, for example. And some people, me among them, can be an excellent inspector of somebody else's work but not see the most obvious errors that I've made.

Hope this helps!

Ed

lr172 · #10 05-23-2018, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garwin

The builder crated up the kit and moved it 25+ years ago to a dry area. Lost the builder logs before I got the kit and now found out that I needed the logs. What can I do to recreate the logs. Van’s does have some invoices dating to the mid 80’s which includes the 1984 update plans with the CN-2 update. It’s an RV-3A kit with the fuselage in the canoe stage and most of the assemblies (wings,tail,flaps etc) close to finished. I am torn between selling the kit as my mentor/partner had backed out of building and financial help due to personal problems. Or sitting on it for a couple of years until I can get started on this project. I have had it for sale but the question of builder logs and the wings seem to be a stopping point. Idea’s?
As this would be my first time building and I had emailed questions to Van’s before buying the kit, Logs did not hit my radar until 2weeks ago. Will a explanation of the kit and it’s progress, supported by Van’s invoices be enough?
Did I just buy scrap metal and an engine core? It came with a 0-235 Lycoming
Thanks in advance for your advice

I purchased a 2nd hand 6A kit. The p/o had no logs, but had pictures though I never showed them to the FAA. I created an affidavit for the p/o to sign, stating that he did all of the work by himself and without professional assistance. As mentioned, this is what the FAA cares about regarding the 51% rule. This was more than adequate for the FSDO personnel. I had detailed logs of my efforts and had no issue getting the repairmans certificate. It was all about how detailed my knowledge was about the airframe and system components. My logs and discussions covered me removing, validating and sometimes repairing all of the control systems work and some structural work done by the p/o.

Larry