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05-13-2007, 05:42 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Thread slightly off track.....
The pilot appears to have violated FAR 91.141 Flight restrictions in the proximity of the President and other parties.
Unless the NOTAM was issued after he took off, there isn't much to talk about. It was a screw up. Could happen to anyone not in the habit of checking for TFR's.
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05-13-2007, 06:06 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 809
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intercept procedures
One of the most embarassing things about this event was that the pilot reportedly said that he thought the F18 pilot was just trying to show him what the F18 "was all about".....he did not understand that it was an intercept.....DUH.
The intercept procedures and expected responses are specific and are pubished as follows:
The inteceptor will approach from the rear, in a flight of two. One will come alongside if you are fast enough, otherwise he will circle.
Signal- interceptor rocks wings
Means- you have been intercepted
Response- rock wings and tune 121.5
At night, the signal and response also include flashing nav lights
Signal- abrupt breakaway by interceptor (90deg turn)
Means- you may proceed
Response- rock wings
Signal- interceptor circles airport overflying in direction of landing with gear down, and at night with landing lights on
Means-land here
Response- lower gear and follow interceptor
Although I hope to never use these procedures, I have them on a kneeboard card just in case. If you find yourself being intercepted over or near a POTUS TFR you are making the military pilots and the secret service very tense. Having been a Secret Service agent I can tell you that they take their job as seriously as it gets. It is a zero defect operation, you cannot fail even once. Allowing harm to a protectee is absoultely not an option...pulling the trigger on a fool who seems to pose an immediate threat is.
N98HK is right. None of these guys want to hurt you, however they have a job to do and you can bet they will do it. Their first concern is to determine that you are not a threat. You can relax their concern by complying with the procedures that are published and which we are all expected to know.
If you just wave at an interceptor thinking that you are being treated to a private airshow, and continue toward POTUS, you and everyone aboard your aircraft will be in grave danger. We all owe it to ourselves, our passengers, and to GA to abide by these rules. We also owe it to the professionals who may have to pull the trigger on us and deal with the emotional aspects of that.
Perhaps all of you who read this already have a copy of the intercept procedures. If you do not, please print it out and keep it in your airplane.
__________________
Tony Johnson
RV8A "Badboy" N12TJ
Treasure Island Florida
Last edited by tonyjohnson : 05-13-2007 at 07:29 PM.
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05-13-2007, 06:18 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: MI
Posts: 59
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"Those who would give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to purchase a little TEMPORARY SAFETY, deserve neither LIBERTY nor SAFETY".... Benjamin Franklin
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RV-8
flying
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05-13-2007, 06:31 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 335
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Since I seem to have stirred up the hornet's nest pretty good here.... here's another printout with intercept procedures. Until we can change the system, we have to know it and love it.
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/libra.../intercept.pdf
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Brian
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05-13-2007, 07:33 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 809
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they WILL shoot you
After I posted my previous post on this thread I remembered an incident that took place in the early 70's. The secret service shot a pilot who got too close to POTUS.
This is not a wives tale, I personally worked the case. If you are given an order by the Secret Service, comply immediatley. If the pilot in this case had done so he would have saved himself from being shot. He was only wounded, but I am willing to bet that he will respond much more rapidly in the future.
When they tell you to do something, they mean RIGHT D*&$ NOW!
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Tony Johnson
RV8A "Badboy" N12TJ
Treasure Island Florida
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05-13-2007, 08:02 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 213
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Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death
I am not sure that complying with an FAA reg that we all agreed to obey in exchange for being able to fly an airplane, keeping up with the TFRs, and complying with a TFR which means taking a 50 mile (15 minute) detour to help keep the president safe, ranks up there with living under the oppressive rule of a foreign king. But hey, that is just me. -- Benjamin Franklin
There is an entire continuum of oppression and I guess we all have our lines-in-the-sand. This isn't mine nor do I believe the line for the majority of the people who frequent these boards. With all of our liberties at risk, I rank compliance with presidential TFRs pretty low on the totum pole of concerns.
I know the ole slippery slope argument, but in my mind if this is a slippery slope, it is covered with non-skid. When people agree to live together, they must agree to give up some individual liberties. It isn't a matter of all or none, it is a matter of how many. And as long as yahoos keep busting these airspace restrictions, you can bet the majority of the people who live in this country will be happy to allow those we have elected to take away their right to fly (which they don't care about) and ours as well.
So if we want to be martyrs and if we want to martyr our hobbie under the same umbrella as "Give me liberty or give me death," I guess we can. Now I don't think that is a slippery slope we want to head down. The first person to get shot out of the sky will not be place on the same historical pedestal as our founding fathers.
Be aware and comply - no ifs, ands, or buts about it!
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Tom & Connie Maxwell
Houston, Texas
RV7A
N512TC
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05-13-2007, 08:38 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sugar Grove IL
Posts: 52
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Common sense ... just some common sense...
I'd just like to mention that I was not suggesting that anyone attempt to defy the TFRs or the interceptors or the USSS.
What I was trying to get across is that common sense needs to prevail in determining how to protect the country, our president and each other. Sending F-15s to intercept GA aircraft which are obviously not any possible threat to the president is just not sensible.
Furthermore, both military officers and United State Secret Service agents took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States. That constitution provides for the rights of the citizens to "due process of law", "freedom of expression", the right to protest, the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures and many others. Having a paranoid shoot-first-and-ask-questions-about-the-dumb-fool-later attitude is in great conflict with the oath they swore. In my personal opinion, the Constitution requires the government to use better discretion than it has been using with regard to security issues.
To summarize, don't be a boob - check for TFRs before you fly.
RK
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05-13-2007, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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F-4 takes twin down
Back in the 80's an F-4 ran a drug interdiction intercept on a light twin carrying a family. The twin was on an IFR flight plan and in the clouds. The F-4 tucked in behind and below, in the shooting position while they tried to figure out who this guy was.
When the F-4 got the all clear, he made a climbing left turn just as ATC told the twin to turn left.
The right wing of the F-4 cut through the fuselage of the twin, the twin went down with four fatalities. The F-4 had some damage, including human hair imbedded on the right wing tip but landed safely.
No cries for justice and very little in the way of requested change.
Do you really think if someone is flying close to the POTUS with his family in an RV-10 and was shot down, the public would really care? I doubt it.
BTW, shortly after that incident some guys in a PA-28 where out over the Golf of Mexico practicing stalls and were mistaken for a drug runners. When they landed a Blackhawk landed right behind him, flipping the plane upside down even before they got off the runway.
When the guys crawled out of their damaged plane, covered in fuel, they where knocked to the ground and held and gun point. A radio call came in that the DEA had the wrong plane so the solders (agents?) got back in the chopper and left. Last I heard the guy was having a hard time getting the government to replace his plane or even acknowledge they did something wrong. This story was also from the 80?s so this may have been resolved, I never did hear the end of it.
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Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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05-13-2007, 08:58 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 809
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the constitution
Ralph,
You are correct in that both the USSS and the military members who would be invloved in these issues swore to protect and defend the consitution. They also swore, at least the military personnel (I don't remember the USSS oath but it is similar) to obey the orders of those appointed over them.
Interpertaion of the consitution is not their perogative. They will follow their orders. Anyone who can fly an interceptor or be a USSS agent is an intelligent person who will have their own views of the constitution, but they understand the rule of law, which is essential to a constitutional government. Our discussion here of the wisdom of TFRs and the response to a violation of it is a benefit of that constitution but is only philosophically relevent to them.
As we debate the issues here we must respect the fact that they have orders, and will carry them out even if they disagree with the constituional basis for them.
I take no position as to whether we should have TFR's or whether we should be intercepted by fighters if we violate them. The law is what it is, and we must be prepared to comply until the laws are changed. I recoginze and respect the balance between personal freedoms and security. I hope that those who make the rules also understand and respect that balance.
__________________
Tony Johnson
RV8A "Badboy" N12TJ
Treasure Island Florida
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05-14-2007, 07:32 AM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,012
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tin man
I think everyone needs to remember that flying is a privelage, not a right. If you think its tough here in the USA talk to a foreign ga pilot.
Tom
RV3
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Tin Man - Why are you and your type so quick to acquiesce to the federal government?? First, enough about how it's done in the rest of the world, please!! Flying indeed will be a privilege bestowed by the "more equal" to the "little people" as those such as yourself keep eagerly handing over their liberties.
The whole F-15, F-16, etc. intercepting GA planes is total BS! If there was indeed a threat, the Secret Svc should bring along 2-3 Phalanx guns or some stingers with Bush where he travels. A plane gets within 2 miles, just shoot it down!! If it's a threat, stop posturing and just do it.
And yes, I get inconvenienced by these useless TFRs 5-10 times a year.
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Bryan
Houston
Last edited by Low Pass : 05-14-2007 at 07:39 AM.
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