My Vans RV conundrum.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by BMC_Dave

At the time he appeared to be looking at total incidents. You're right there aren't a lot of examples, and the one that's often touted as proving "always" RVs flip is misleading (guy lands in shallow surf).

Just wanted to provide some reasoned analysis to the "You'll flip over and DIE!!1!" line of non-thinking.

Not saying that 2 out of two proves anything with absolute certainty but here is another first hand account http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/Ditching.htm

I know of others that flipped but can't point to a document with details.

A noteworthy one was an RV-4, 25+ years ago that flipped in shallow enough water that it prevented the occupants from opening the canopy to get out.

I haven't ever heard of an RV that didn't flip when it ditched. If anyone can point me to a factual account, I would be interested in reading the details.

With all of that, I don't mean to imply I promote the land in water , you will die position, but I think it does require some serious personal consideration (regard for the ability's of the occupants to deal with underwater exit, etc.), and I hope that people don't automatically assume it will always be the best option.

[BMC_Dave]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

Not saying that 2 out of two proves anything with absolute certainty but here is another first hand account http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/Ditching.htm

I know of others that flipped but can't point to a document with details.

A noteworthy one was an RV-4, 25+ years ago that flipped in shallow enough water that it prevented the occupants from opening the canopy to get out.

I haven't ever heard of an RV that didn't flip when it ditched. If anyone can point me to a factual account, I would be interested in reading the details.

With all of that, I don't mean to imply I promote the land in water , you will die position, but I think it does require some serious personal consideration (regard for the ability's of the occupants to deal with underwater exit, etc.), and I hope that people don't automatically assume it will always be the best option.

Nor should it be assumed to be the worst either. As with most things in life, it depends...

[Davy8or]

Originally Posted by Jim Frisbie

Dave
I hear your concerns and appreciate your asking questions on this forum
I have 650 hrs on my 9A that fits most of your criteria. My wife and I have flown it all over the west & NW.
I am currently building a 10, and will eventually have to let go of the 9A.
As to the safety factor, note that according to AOPA RVs are at least as safe as production planes. I am comfortable flying over mountains and open water (as much as one can in an SEL plane.
I also installed the antisplat nose gear mod.
All airplanes are a compromise, but I have found the RVs to have the best blend of features. It?s the flying qualities that make us fly more than the usual GA pilots.....
Jim Frisbie

Thanks Jim for the input! Great to hear of your success. I'm going to find and read that AOPA report.

[Davy8or]

Originally Posted by Jaypratt

Come and hang around Home built camping at Oshkosh. Lots of women for your wife to meet. Plan on staying most all week. Let her get to know the girls and she will eventually come to realize there is no more fear in experamentals than certified.

I've been to Oshkosh twice and stayed the whole week both times. I will be back. My wife however did not come. I think she could handle about a half a day at OSH. After that... I would get "the look" and grumpy attitude I'm sure. Airplanes really aren't her thing.

[Davy8or]

Originally Posted by BMC_Dave

http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm
http://www.equipped.com/watertrees.htm

While not definitive the above articles do a pretty good job of giving a reasoned discussion on the matter using actual data, not hearsay.

Ditching is far from the death trap it's often parroted as, the vast majority being survivable. You are also likely to be uninjured in a water landing.

Nevertheless folks will continue to climb over each other to tell you otherwise.

Don't let myths, anecdotes, and old wives' tales force you into making rules for yourself that could get you killed some day. Look at the facts and draw your own conclusion.

Thanks for posting the links. I have already read them in the past. I was wondering more about the Vans RV performance at ditching mostly, but perhaps the type is just too young, or their owners don't fly over open water much. Could be the case. In the case of the Mooney with it's 60 year history and reputation for being a traveling machine, there are lots of real world ditching stories and even one or two videos. The conclusion is, ditch a Mooney in something other than rough seas with the gear up and it will come to rest upright with plenty of time to get out.

[Davy8or]

Originally Posted by flyboy1963

okay Dave, you are getting ALL the feedback you asked for!...and then some!

a couple more points from a former -9a owner.

safety; to address some of the issues.....
upgrade to the rv-10 nosegear and 5.00x5 wheel...will possibly improve overall ground handling and reduce risk on those rough surfaces.
sit in any RV - the visibility HAS to be a big improvement in safety and situational awareness in the pattern...plus the feeling of spaciousness.

I will have to search and look up this nose gear mod. Could you point me to a link?

I'm already sold on the visibility! I love the view. That's why I can't decide if I'd get a slider vs. a tip up. That tip up view is so awesome! But that's another can of worms...

cost: look at the typical 10 year investment in your Mooney vs the RV. If you still don't like the numbers, get a partner, and build an RV-14

fit: get a -14a...solves 90% of my issues.. if not feasible, do the canopy slider and seat-back mods to get more seating options/accommodation.

No RV-14 for me. It is way out of my price league and I would likely have to increase my fuel budget.

I'm going to have to look into the seat mods and canopy mods. I guess they get you better baggage area access?

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by BMC_Dave

At the time he appeared to be looking at total incidents. You're right there aren't a lot of examples, and the one that's often touted as proving "always" RVs flip is misleading (guy lands in shallow surf).

Just wanted to provide some reasoned analysis to the "You'll flip over and DIE!!1!" line of non-thinking.

Based on my 'reasoned analysis' and personal 'thinking' over the past couple of decades, I have concluded that if I ditch my RV-6 it will flip over and I'll die. There are several reasons I reached this conclusion, among them is the certainty of an RV flipping over if the gear is suddenly brought to a stop, the extreme violence of a ditching (flip-over), the exposure to the elements due to the canopy design, the difficulty of opening a jammed canopy (especially if injured), and the total disorientation I would experience (if still conscious...) immediately following the event.

I don't fly over a large expanse of water, but others have a different level of risk tolerance and routinely fly to the Bahamas, etc.

[BMC_Dave]

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan

Based on my 'reasoned analysis' and personal 'thinking' over the past couple of decades, I have concluded that if I ditch my RV-6 it will flip over and I'll die. There are several reasons I reached this conclusion, among them is the certainty of an RV flipping over if the gear is suddenly brought to a stop, the extreme violence of a ditching (flip-over), the exposure to the elements due to the canopy design, the difficulty of opening a jammed canopy (especially if injured), and the total disorientation I would experience (if still conscious...) immediately following the event.

I don't fly over a large expanse of water, but others have a different level of risk tolerance and routinely fly to the Bahamas, etc.

So you’ve set a hard rule for yourself, your prerogative. Folks will decide that for themselves.

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by BMC_Dave

So you’ve set a hard rule for yourself, your prerogative. Folks will decide that for themselves.

True. My point is that my personal decision is based on careful consideration of several factors unique to RVs, not on some sort of "non-thinking".

[tgmillso]

As a fellow single engine, fixed gear, overwater nutbag, it appears we have a situation on our hands that needs rectifying... wheels that fold away on a fast two seat RV.
If Roy can do it, then surely Van's can, as they are both up there in demigod aeroplane guru status.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zto0uqU93Tg
I'm about two months from wrapping the -7 up, so as much as I swore and declared at times during the build process I would wouldn't build another one (especially the day I drilled into my finger with that #40 bit), I'd be the second person to put in the order for the RG model. I'd only be second because I would be attempting to be courteous to the OP of this thread, as he currently doesn't have an RV at all.
Tom.