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02-08-2018, 09:36 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Rocker switch action and conventions
Moved from another general thread...
This picture (stolen from Aerosport) shows the up/down question I had -
In this pic I would say the middle switch is in the ON position, but I'm not sure if that is what the indicating lights say, or what the standard convention is. The switches will be mounted on the lower portion of a vertical instrument panel.
I was thinking I would prefer a two lamp switch with the upper section being the "label" and always illuminated, and a lit-up indicator (usually a line or oval on the Carling actuators) on the lower part of the switch coming on when the circuit is active.
Does this make sense? It is easily done with the switch in my post #7. The Aerosport switches for two lights have a not so simple ON/OFF/ON actuation.
Some options are here.
Which do you think is the clearest and would the top or the bottom of the switch be depressed for the ON position?
With the correct switch the top and bottom text/icons would be separately back-lit, either continuously or when the circuit is activated.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Last edited by az_gila : 02-08-2018 at 09:41 AM.
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02-08-2018, 09:43 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
Moved from another general thread...
This picture (stolen from Aerosport) shows the up/down question I had -
In this pic I would say the middle switch is in the ON position,
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I would say it was off.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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02-08-2018, 10:01 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Ooltewah, TN.
Posts: 580
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Keep in mind that those Carling switches that are "dual lamp/LED" are actually ON-OFF-ON (aka: three position switch) style double throw switches, well the ones most of the online retailers are selling.
While the LED's in the DPDT, dual indicator, switches can be independent from the switch position, I *think* that option is only available in the ON-OFF-ON switch. Most folks want an OFF-ON style switch.
When I was researching doing custom switch engraving using my 45w CO2 laser, I ran into some problems with trying to find Carlings in the configuration most builders wanted: Off-On, dual independent indicators. Or, Off-On with the indicators negative lead being switched (for LED's) to be used with a VPX.
__________________
Lynn Dixon
RV-7 Slider -
Tail kit Completed - March 2017
Wing Kit Started - June 2017
My Build Log: http://www.theskunkwerx.com
Last edited by CubedRoot : 02-08-2018 at 10:03 AM.
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02-08-2018, 10:20 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,291
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Gil - this one is pretty simple. Standard "switch-ology" for aviation is that a switch is in its normal ON position when moved UP or FORWARD. In the examples you've shown, the Master AVI switch is in the OFF position because the part of the switch closest to the pilot has not been pushed forward. Also, if you consider the hinge point of a standard toggle switch to be similar to the hinge point of the rocker, a downward motion of the toggle switch would create the same tactile response as moving a rocker switch by pressing on the lower half of its rocker. In both instances the expected response would be the item being controlled by the switch would be turned "OFF".
Since you've got some Grumman experience, go look at the rocker switches in your Tiger. You'll find you depress the top part of the switch (push it forward toward the panel) to turn the item on. Same deal with the switches in your photo.
With respect to legends and lighting, I would suggest the legend of the switch should be located where it is the most visible to the seated pilot. Depending on the number of degrees of "throw" involved in activating the rocker switch and the angles on the face of the switch, you might find that in the "OFF" position the upper half of the switch is tipped backwards far enough that it's difficult to read the switch legend. This ultimately is the situation you should avoid.
If I may be so bold as to suggest it, the "ON" indication, whether by simple illumination of an LED or a backlit "ON" legend, should be physically separated from the switch legend. For a moment just imagine you're looking at a row of switches, all with back lit legends. How much extra time would it take you to consciously verify amidst all that text that the additional "ON" text as illuminated? I believe you will find your eye will much more easily discriminate the status of the switch if that status annunciation is physically separated from the switch legend text.
With this having been said, the left pitot heat rocker switch would be the least desirable configuration, while either the center or the right-most pitot heat switch would be more desirable configurations.
Last edited by Canadian_JOY : 02-08-2018 at 10:25 AM.
Reason: added clarifcation
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02-08-2018, 10:21 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Not Correct
Quote:
Originally Posted by CubedRoot
Keep in mind that those Carling switches that are "dual lamp/LED" are actually ON-OFF-ON (aka: three position switch) style double throw switches, well the ones most of the online retailers are selling.
While the LED's in the DPDT, dual indicator, switches can be independent from the switch position, I *think* that option is only available in the ON-OFF-ON switch. Most folks want an OFF-ON style switch.
When I was researching doing custom switch engraving using my 45w CO2 laser, I ran into some problems with trying to find Carlings in the configuration most builders wanted: Off-On, dual independent indicators. Or, Off-On with the indicators negative lead being switched (for LED's) to be used with a VPX.
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NOT CORRECT.
If you look hard there are many variations. The switch I linked to in the "post #7" reference is a simple ON/OFF switch with two independent light circuits.
I will check today, but I believe the switches can be mounted upside down so ON can be top or bottom depressed.
Also note that the custom printed back-lit actuators are more of a symmetrical nature than the curved rockers in the Aerosport picture. I'll post a pic later today.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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02-08-2018, 10:28 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Metamora, Michigan
Posts: 209
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Carling Contura V switches are available with a dependent and independent LED. The independent LED can be powered by a lighting circuit, perhaps on when the NAV lights are on and controlled by a dimmer circuit. This would be the upper LED and light the "label" of the switch. The dependent LED is powered when the switch is in the ON position. This LED illuminates the lower bar on the actuator.
It then is easy to determine which switch is on by the lower indicators.
The switch data: http://www.carlingtech.com/sites/def...COS_111213.pdf
And here are the custom actuators: https://rockerswitchpros.com/product...itch-actuator/
Source for LED, two light switch: https://newwiremarine.com/product/red-led-on-off-spst/
__________________
John von Linsowe
Michigan
RV-7
Cessna 140
Last edited by von_flyer : 02-08-2018 at 01:16 PM.
Reason: added links
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02-08-2018, 10:38 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY
Gil - this one is pretty simple. Standard "switch-ology" for aviation is that a switch is in its normal ON position when moved UP or FORWARD. In the examples you've shown, the Master AVI switch is in the OFF position because the part of the switch closest to the pilot has not been pushed forward. Also, if you consider the hinge point of a standard toggle switch to be similar to the hinge point of the rocker, a downward motion of the toggle switch would create the same tactile response as moving a rocker switch by pressing on the lower half of its rocker. In both instances the expected response would be the item being controlled by the switch would be turned "OFF".
Since you've got some Grumman experience, go look at the rocker switches in your Tiger. You'll find you depress the top part of the switch (push it forward toward the panel) to turn the item on. Same deal with the switches in your photo.
With respect to legends and lighting, I would suggest the legend of the switch should be located where it is the most visible to the seated pilot. Depending on the number of degrees of "throw" involved in activating the rocker switch and the angles on the face of the switch, you might find that in the "OFF" position the upper half of the switch is tipped backwards far enough that it's difficult to read the switch legend. This ultimately is the situation you should avoid.
If I may be so bold as to suggest it, the "ON" indication, whether by simple illumination of an LED or a backlit "ON" legend, should be physically separated from the switch legend. For a moment just imagine you're looking at a row of switches, all with back lit legends. How much extra time would it take you to consciously verify amidst all that text that the additional "ON" text as illuminated? I believe you will find your eye will much more easily discriminate the status of the switch if that status annunciation is physically separated from the switch legend text.
With this having been said, the left pitot heat rocker switch would be the least desirable configuration, while either the center or the right-most pitot heat switch would be more desirable configurations.
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Vern, thanks for the comments. Some of my confusion probably goes back to my youth (and recent 3 week trip) and the European toggle switch household light convention.
Carling even refers to European vs US standards in some of their switch literature.
Perhaps this now makes sense. Bottom always back lit and top words lit when active. It also tells you were to press to get it on.
There is not much angular movement between on and off.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Last edited by az_gila : 02-08-2018 at 10:42 AM.
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02-08-2018, 10:44 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
I would say it was off.
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OK, but it doesn't make sense to me that the back lighting would go off in the on position. 
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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02-08-2018, 10:46 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
There is not much angular movement between on and off.
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You could also label it "Push On"
If I were making my own switch covers, that is how I would do it.
Or, for the maximum of overkill for the OCD types--------switch identifying label in the center, top part labeled push on, bottom labeled push off.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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02-08-2018, 11:03 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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I will have to agree with Mike. Standard convention is that the switch should be "on" in the up position. To me, that would be with the top of the switch pushed in.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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