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01-29-2018, 09:41 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefPilot
Does this data take into account flight hours or fleet sizes? If not, what value does this data provide?
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No, because they aren't reported in the NTSB data set the report uses.
Maybe "analysis" isn't the right word to describe this effort, because the analysis is really up to the end user. It is more of an easy way to search/slice the individual incidents.
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01-29-2018, 11:38 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 181
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John B - funny that you should create this I started doing it in excel based on a post a few days ago. What might be fun is to see the "A" vs tail wheel comparisons and also the % of incidents per model as a percentage of models flying from Vans website. The 6's have been around a lot longer (and more were made) so you would expect them to have more incidents. But does that mean they are safer? Less safe? Obviously it's all in fun, but the numbers would make for some interesting discussions on the forums.
Obviously the 12s are way safer than the others ;-)
__________________
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Jeff Wright, Charlotte NC
Rv-12 started!
Tail 99% done
Wings 99% done
12IS fuse kit 99% done
Finish kit 95% done
Avionics kit 1% done
Dues paid 2020
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01-29-2018, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JwWright57
John B - funny that you should create this I started doing it in excel based on a post a few days ago. What might be fun is to see the "A" vs tail wheel comparisons and also the % of incidents per model as a percentage of models flying from Vans website. The 6's have been around a lot longer (and more were made) so you would expect them to have more incidents. But does that mean they are safer? Less safe? Obviously it's all in fun, but the numbers would make for some interesting discussions on the forums.
Obviously the 12s are way safer than the others ;-)
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Yeah, I could probably add in the fleet sizes and do some more work there to make the numbers more meaningful. However, knowing how messy the "make" and "model" fields of the dataset are, doing a tail v nose wheel comparison will probably be painful. Not only do you have the builders registering interesting model names, you also have the NTSB typing them in an inconsistent format, as I discovered when running a similar report on Mooneys. As with anything human entered, you get all kinds of funny stuff.
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01-29-2018, 12:34 PM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,301
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That analysis tool is way cool, but it's important to realize the limitations of the underlying data.
For the EAA Founder’s Innovation Prize, I analyzed 551 RV-series reports in depth, meaning I had my own data-driven taxonomy implemented on a multi-page spreadsheet and went through the entire data set multiple times, a tedious and exhausting exercise. With regard to flight phase, I found that the flight phase information was often missing, irrelevant to the accident chain, or inconsistent with the narrative. Not the NTSB’s fault, they aren’t necessarily the ones whose staff enters and edits the data. But you get the idea…
What my research (which included way more than just the NTSB reports) showed was pretty interesting, and it did not support the hypothesis that giving everybody an angle of attack display would solve loss of control problems. Rather, the two main conclusions were:
1) Safety is not part of the general aviation culture in the US. In the experimental amateur built aircraft community, the culture is, “It’s experimental, you can do what you want,” ignoring that the laws of aerodynamics don’t care what you want. If safety is to be part of the culture, it must omnipresent – in every magazine article, not just in a safety column (which emphasizes unintentionally that safety is separable from all the good stuff); in every award (e.g., EAA homebuilt judging doesn’t require that a full, documented flight test program be performed, only that the plane is flying); at every EAA chapter meeting (videos from the mother ship would be easy to do); in all other communications and meetings; and most importantly, the underlying theme of those safety messages should be, hey, we value you and want to keep you around, not the current, limited effectiveness message of look what yet another lamentable underachiever (*******) did.
2) Basic stick and rudder skills are frequently inadequate, often because conventional flight training focuses on proficiency in the middle of the envelope – accidents don’t happen in the middle of the envelope – with occasional, timid forays towards stalls. What’s absent is any training or documented exercises to improve flying skills in that great gap between middle of the envelope and stalls, let alone spins. I’ve developed a whole slew of exercises that are fun, challenging (tried on both ATP and private pilots), and those exercises also give pilots something fun to do besides fly around in circles. These are at most 2 G maneuvers that should be doable in just about any GA airplane, and I’ve tried these so far in RV-9A, RV-8, and Cessna 150. The point is to help people recognize, avoid, and survive potential LOC situations.
The Chairman of the NTSB requested the best copy of my work, and he held a meeting last week to review that work and other material. In an hour long, follow up phone call with a staff member, my work was called, “thought provoking.”
Now it’s time for the next step, to get the greater aviation community involved so that these ideas mature into our ideas instead of just Ed’s ideas. If anybody has any contacts with the aeronautical universities (ERAU, UND, LeTourneau, etc.) or any of the big flight schools, I’d love to work with them, and I’ve got all the appropriate credentials. I think that at this stage, having an organization work with and develop the concepts would be more efficient that working with individuals – which would probably be the next step.
__________________
RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
2020 dues slightly overpaid
Retired - "They used to pay me to be good, now I'm good for nothing."
Last edited by Ed_Wischmeyer : 01-29-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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01-29-2018, 01:51 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Leander
Posts: 98
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Exercises
Ed, why don't you post your exercises for us to evaluate?
I'd like to see them.
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01-29-2018, 02:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbrewer
Ed, why don't you post your exercises for us to evaluate?
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Thought about that, but...
* Way too many pages to post, and the present descriptions of the exercises are adequate but terse;
* Some of them really should be done with a CFI who has seen those exercises in advance and knows how to do them -- not because they're dangerous, but because they're so different. Some of the exercises deliberately generate high levels of sensory input that could task-saturate the uninitiated;
* At this time, the objective is to mature the concepts and make them mainstream. There's a perceived risk to that objective if the exercises are just thrown over the fence and one or two people loudly trash them, whether out of ignorance or self-aggrandizement. That's always a risk with new ideas;
* I don't have any good way to vet the volunteers, especially in terms of their ability to generate meaningful, thoughtful, insightful comments;
* Everybody's favorite, liability.
Thanks for the thought, though.
Ed
__________________
RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
2020 dues slightly overpaid
Retired - "They used to pay me to be good, now I'm good for nothing."
Last edited by Ed_Wischmeyer : 01-29-2018 at 03:35 PM.
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01-29-2018, 08:10 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Nikiski, AK
Posts: 413
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Great Data-Change of Habits
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefPilot
Does this data take into account flight hours or fleet sizes? If not, what value does this data provide?
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Been reading just the NTSB reports for the RV-6 series.
A few are unknown issues, but two issues have struck home for me:
Open canopy in flight and Carb Icing.
Just how does an open canopy in flight happen? Well it looks like on take-off.
This time of year here in Alaska the canopy frosts over instantly if you have been doing any physical activity to pre-flight and pre-heat. Removing covers, checking and removing any airframe ice, warms you up fast because of layers to stay warm. Once you climb inside and shut the canopy for engine start, instant frost that starts on your side of the canopy.
My answer has been to open the outside vents, letting the cold air in to circulate, then opening the canopy so it vents to the outside while I taxi for takeoff. This keeps the canopy clear, once ready for run-up close canopy latches, do run-up and go. Could it be possible to forget to latch the canopy?-yes almost did it, after taking the active runway, realized it was still open.
Change of habit, bought a small 12v electric "defroster" from Walmart. Not sure if it works, but if it can circulate the air enough without using the heat option, it can be a life-saver. Won't be taxing with the canopy open anymore!
It looks like the canopy wasn't latched on a few of the accidents possibly due to high heat and ventilation while taxing.
Headsets are great, but they also lessen the noise from an open canopy. Can't quite here the traffic or tower, turn the volume up...
Carb ice seems to be another issue, from now on I'll do a Carb Ice Potential Chart check before every flight. Interesting to see it can happen with certain conditions above 70 deg F. Rarely gets that hot here in Alaska, so need to be more vigilant when pre-flighting.
Great info if you want to learn from other's mistakes. Well worth the time to read!
Best regards,
Mike Bauer
__________________
Mike Bauer
N999SN 1998 Syd Nelson RV-6 (purchased 2017)
UTC -09:00 Alaska
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01-29-2018, 08:19 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbauer
Been reading just the NTSB reports for the RV-6 series.
A few are unknown issues, but two issues have struck home for me:
Open canopy in flight and Carb Icing.
<snip>
Best regards,
Mike Bauer
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My rule for the canopy (slider) is that it is either wide open or it is closed and latched. It is never shut but unlatched.
__________________
Kyle Boatright
Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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01-29-2018, 09:05 PM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbauer
Carb ice seems to be another issue, from now on I'll do a Carb Ice Potential Chart check before every flight. Interesting to see it can happen with certain conditions above 70 deg F.
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I found a significant number of carb ice events in the NTSB data. I get some RPM drop in my RV-9A, but the carb heat worked well the one time I needed it in flight. In the RV-8, I see no RPM drop during runup. And in a friend's RV-9A, applying the carb hear *drops* the carb air temperature one degree, according to his instrumentation.
Ed
__________________
RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
2020 dues slightly overpaid
Retired - "They used to pay me to be good, now I'm good for nothing."
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01-30-2018, 06:45 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
My rule for the canopy (slider) is that it is either wide open or it is closed and latched. It is never shut but unlatched.
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Basically the same for me in the tip-up, it's either open, resting on 'hook' or closed latched. Let's just say I've learned this lesson the hard way.
I can also tell you that flying a 7 with the canopy unlatched won't kill you, unless you forget to fly the airplane.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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