Airmaster Constant Speed Prop

[N456TS]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

Negative

If it is E-LSA it was certified as an LSA (consensus standard) compliant airplane that just happens to also be experimental.

One of the basic core requirements of LSA is that it can not have an in flight controllable propeller. If someone installs an in-flight controllable propeller on an E-LSA RV-12 the airplane is no longer legal to fly.

Negative back at you. You can take an E-LSA out of the definition of a light sport aircraft. It will then require a PPL to fly it. The A/W doesn't change. Once the airframe has had a C/S prop, it can't ever be flown as a light sport aircraft again. Believe what you wish. I won't distract from the core intent of the thread any further.

[rongawer]

I think you?re going to find multiple threads that discuss this topic, however the short synopsis is that you can alter an E-AB airplane out of LSA configuration and keep flying it E-AB - just not by a sport pilot. But if you alter the configuration of an E-LSA to no longer comply with LSA standards, it?s AWC becomes invalid.

[DaleB]

Originally Posted by rongawer

I think you?re going to find multiple threads that discuss this topic, however the short synopsis is that you can alter an E-AB airplane out of LSA configuration and keep flying it E-AB - just not by a sport pilot. But if you alter the configuration of an E-LSA to no longer comply with LSA standards, it?s AWC becomes invalid.

That's what I have heard and read in some forum discussions, but does anyone have an actual reference for that? I found some language in 8130.2J about requiring that the airplane meet LSA requirements and have no modifications not blessed by the kit manufacture to have the A/W cert issued, but there's no mention of modifications after the certificate is issued.

It's an interesting (and honest) question. Since there is no "major portion" requirement for E-LSA, there is no path to E-AB, so if the E-LSA cert is invalid you have a lawn ornament... unless maybe you could get it certified as market research or exhibition. The question is, what (if anything) WILL invalidate the airworthiness certificate, by regulation? I have been looking, and haven't found anything yet that states that altering an E-LSA outside of LSA limits invalidates the airworthiness certificate. I'm not saying it's not there, I just haven't found it yet.

I ask not because it matters to me personally, but because I'm working on an article about LSA certification, maintenance, repair and modifications - and I'd like to make sure any information I convey is correct.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by N456TS

Negative back at you. You can take an E-LSA out of the definition of a light sport aircraft. It will then require a PPL to fly it. The A/W doesn't change. Once the airframe has had a C/S prop, it can't ever be flown as a light sport aircraft again. Believe what you wish. I won't distract from the core intent of the thread any further.

Ok, then for everyone else.....

For an E-LSA to receive its airworthiness cert., the kit manufacturer and the builder must both certify on a Form 8130-15 that the airplane kit and assembly processes used, built and assembled the airplane to be a copy of the original S-LSA aircraft that was previously certified to meet the LSA consensus standard (met all of the requirements of an LSA aircraft such as stall speed, max speed, and a lot more).

Certifying that it meets all of those requirements is what makes it a Light Sport Aircraft.
Because it is experiential, it can be modified to what ever degree the owner wishes..... as long as no modification causes a performance change that makes it no longer meet the requirements for a Light Sport Aircraft.
If a modification did make it perform outside the requirements, its airworthiness certificate is no longer valid.

The problem is that there is no LSA police. You are on your honor that the airplane you are flying, regardless of what you have done to it, still meets all of the LSA requirements. This has nothing to do with what level of certification the pilot has.

The bottom line is if you are still flying with an E-LSA airworthiness certificate, it is still an LSA aircraft. It can't be an LSA aircraft if it doesn't meet the LSA performance requirements.

E-AB is totally different

An E-AB that was originally certified as meeting the LSA requirements (such as an E-AB RV-12) does not have this burden, because meeting LSA requirements is Not a qualifier for receiving an E-AB airworthiness. It just happened to be an E-AB aircraft that the builder claims meets the requirements which then allows a sport pilot to fly it. If modifications are made that would make it no longer meet the light sport requirements, its certification is still valid (because they weren't a requirement) but now a Sport Pilot can no longer fly it.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by DaleB

I ask not because it matters to me personally, but because I'm working on an article about LSA certification, maintenance, repair and modifications - and I'd like to make sure any information I convey is correct.

I can put you in contact with a couple of the people in Oklahoma that oversee the entire LSA program in the USA.
They should be able to give you the (official) answers you seek.

[sandpiper]

You could also ask Carol or Brian Carpenter at http://www.rainbowaviation.com

[Mel]

Originally Posted by N456TS

Negative back at you. You can take an E-LSA out of the definition of a light sport aircraft. It will then require a PPL to fly it. The A/W doesn't change. Once the airframe has had a C/S prop, it can't ever be flown as a light sport aircraft again. Believe what you wish. I won't distract from the core intent of the thread any further.

You may NOT take an ELSA out of the definition of a light-sport aircraft and maintain the airworthiness certificate as valid! Once the aircraft has been removed from the light-sport parameters, the ELSA airworthiness certificate is invalid and may not be reinstated.
I was involved with setting up the ELSA certification process and was one of the first 2 DARs authorized to do certifications. I assure you that I know what I'm talking about.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

Ok, then for everyone else.....
For an E-LSA to receive its airworthiness cert., the kit manufacturer and the builder must both certify on a Form 8130-15 that the airplane kit and assembly processes used, built and assembled the airplane to be a copy of the original S-LSA aircraft that was previously certified to meet the LSA consensus standard (met all of the requirements of an LSA aircraft such as stall speed, max speed, and a lot more).
Certifying that it meets all of those requirements is what makes it a Light Sport Aircraft.
Because it is experiential, it can be modified to what ever degree the owner wishes..... as long as no modification causes a performance change that makes it no longer meet the requirements for a Light Sport Aircraft.
If a modification did make it perform outside the requirements, its airworthiness certificate is no longer valid.
The problem is that there is no LSA police. You are on your honor that the airplane you are flying, regardless of what you have done to it, still meets all of the LSA requirements. This has nothing to do with what level of certification the pilot has.
The bottom line is if you are still flying with an E-LSA airworthiness certificate, it is still an LSA aircraft. It can't be an LSA aircraft if it doesn't meet the LSA performance requirements.
E-AB is totally different
An E-AB that was originally certified as meeting the LSA requirements (such as an E-AB RV-12) does not have this burden, because meeting LSA requirements is Not a qualifier for receiving an E-AB airworthiness. It just happened to be an E-AB aircraft that the builder claims meets the requirements which then allows a sport pilot to fly it. If modifications are made that would make it no longer meet the light sport requirements, its certification is still valid (because they weren't a requirement) but now a Sport Pilot can no longer fly it.

What he said!

[DaleB]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

I can put you in contact with a couple of the people in Oklahoma that oversee the entire LSA program in the USA.
They should be able to give you the (official) answers you seek.

That would be good, thanks. I'm certainly not saying that you, Mel, Brian Carpenter and everyone else who says the exact same thing are wrong. It would make sense, as much as any federal regulation makes sense. I'm just looking for the regulatory reference that everyone seems to "know" is there, but doesn't seem to be explicitly stated anywhere that I have found so far.

The closest thing I can find is what is implied by ?21.191:

Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:
...
(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that?
...

If it's no longer a light-sport aircraft, then it would seem that the airworthiness certificate doesn't cover it. And lacking the major portion rule, there is no path to from E-LSA to E-AB, so you would have a nice looking wind tee.

Except... the RV-12, for example, can be built as E-AB, meaning the kit does meet the major portion rule. If the builder certified it as E-LSA, but could document doing at least 51% of the work, could he not later apply for an E-AB airworthiness certificate? Never mind, forget I asked. It's a question for another time and place.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by DaleB

That would be good, thanks. I'm certainly not saying that you, Mel, Brian Carpenter and everyone else who says the exact same thing are wrong. It would make sense, as much as any federal regulation makes sense. I'm just looking for the regulatory reference that everyone seems to "know" is there, but doesn't seem to be explicitly stated anywhere that I have found so far.

The closest thing I can find is what is implied by ?21.191:

Implied is enough.
Flight as an LSA is the purpose it was specifically certified as.

All of the Van's company airplanes (except for RV-12's) are certified as Experimental - Market Survey. Market Survey use was the premise for receiving their airworthiness certificate. They also are experimental, but they are still bound to operating within the parameters that their airworthiness certificate was issued under.

You can only modify and deviate away from LSA performance, if LSA performance wasn't a prerequisite for the aircraft to receive its airworthiness certificate.

Originally Posted by DaleB

If it's no longer a light-sport aircraft, then it would seem that the airworthiness certificate doesn't cover it. And lacking the major portion rule, there is no path to from E-LSA to E-AB, so you would have a nice looking wind tee.

Except... the RV-12, for example, can be built as E-AB, meaning the kit does meet the major portion rule. If the builder certified it as E-LSA, but could document doing at least 51% of the work, could he not later apply for an E-AB airworthiness certificate? Never mind, forget I asked. It's a question for another time and place.

No. There are restrictions that prevent aircraft that have previously had an airworthiness certificate issued to them, from certified as an E-AB

As already mentioned, meeting LSA performance requirements is not necessarily a prerequisite to receive an Airworthiness Certificate.
There are many Standard Category aircraft (Champ and Cub for example) that meet the LSA performance requirements and can be flown by a Sport Pilot but they don't have LSA printed anywhere on their airworthiness certificate, but if for their entire operational life they have meet the performance requirements, a Sport Pilot can fly them. Same for E-AB.

But for E-LSA meeting the Light Sport requirements was a requirement for them to be eligible to receive the E-LSA airworthiness.
If it ever doesn't meet that eligibility requirement, it is no longer legal to fly, just like if a Standard Category airplane is no longer legal to fly if it doesn't meet the requirements of its type certificate.