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12-05-2017, 01:47 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Of all the things to argue about on this forum, this has to be one of the more pedantic.
Two relevant/amusing experiences from my past.
When I was in the AF stationed in England, my Jaguar had a bad front seal leak. Being a poor airman at the time, I did not have the resources to keep throwing ATF into it every day nor the motivation to spend the weekend dropping the tranny and replacing the seal. What I did have though, was access to an unlimited supply of 5606. So that's what I filled it with. Every day for months. I'll bet I ran 50 gallons of the stuff through that tranny before I finally installed a new seal. Was still running fine on 5606 when I transferred back home a year later.
When I picked up my Tri Pacer and serviced the brakes, I found that the previous owner had serviced it completely with DOT 3 (automotive) brake fluid. The Certified Cleveland brakes didn't seem to mind one bit. (Yes, I went with 5606)
I have a lifetime of 5606 around, but I'd have no trouble at all adding ATF out on the road if required. Power steering systems use it as do convertible top systems.
Is it just a slow week on the forum?
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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12-05-2017, 04:55 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefPilot
To claim that it is not safe because it is not "certified" is cowardice, done perhaps only to prop up ones own choice or to try to promote some kind of air of superior knowledge where none otherwise exists. Certified does not mean superior; if it did, we'd all be flying factory built aircraft which come complete with certified brake fluid.
Walt and others engaging in the FUD around lawsuits and such seem to be doing so out of ignorance - does it really pass the smell test that a lawsuit would zone in on the brake fluid while at the same time ignoring the amateur built status and use of uncertified parts *provided by the kit manufacturer*?
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Hmm, never been called a coward before for sharing my opinion. Personally I don't really care what you think or prefer to use in your own system, but recommending it to others just because you think it ok is just plain wrong IMO.
Neither Van's nor any brake manufacturer I'm aware of has tested or approves using ATF in their brake systems, but I guess you're just smarter than they are.
Until they do, thank you very much but I'll stick with the "approved" fluids.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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12-05-2017, 04:58 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: new iberia la
Posts: 768
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Brake Fluid.
When I picked up my Tri Pacer and serviced the brakes, I found that the previous owner had serviced it completely with DOT 3 (automotive) brake fluid. The Certified Cleveland brakes didn't seem to mind one bit. (Yes, I went with 5606)
For what its worth: It was years ago, but I once spent days replacing parts and rebuilding the brake system on a Cherokee 6 that had been operated for a couple months with automotive (Dot 3) brake fluid. Many of the ?O? rings were very soft and gummy. On my 9 I will use the higher flash point Aviation Grade Fluid or ATF. Only 5606 in the Pacer.
Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer
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12-05-2017, 05:08 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefPilot
I've been using Mobil ATF in my brakes for the last 5 years and 900+ hours. No problems. It has a higher flash point than 5606 - I had a much harder time inducing ATF to combustion than 5606 when I proved this for myself. It is compatible with the standard seals etc no only by specification but also by empirical evidence. In the world of experimental aviation, this is perhaps one of the "safest" experiments I have performed.
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PS: In case you missed this in my previous post:
Flash point of Royco 782 (MIL-PRF-83282) and Mobil 1 ATF appear to be about the same 445F/220C.
http://www.qclubricants.com/royco/royco_782.htm
So unless you're just "very frugal" (I'm being nice here), or just want to be different, there's really no good reason not to use what the brake manufacturers recommend.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
Last edited by Walt : 12-05-2017 at 05:10 PM.
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12-05-2017, 05:43 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1,565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt
Hmm, never been called a coward before for sharing my opinion. Personally I don't really care what you think or prefer to use in your own system, but recommending it to others just because you think it ok is just plain wrong IMO.
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I don't believe I ever said anyone should use any specific thing, only that I use ATF. I also don't pretend to be morally superior by claiming to use something just because it's certified and I don't try to install fear of lawsuits for using something else.
__________________
Brad Benson, Maplewood MN.
RV-6A N164BL, Flying since Nov 2012!
If you're not making mistakes, you're probably not making anything
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12-05-2017, 06:51 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefPilot
I don't believe I ever said anyone should use any specific thing, only that I use ATF. I also don't pretend to be morally superior by claiming to use something just because it's certified and I don't try to install fear of lawsuits for using something else.
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It has nothing to do with "certified", it's just what the aircraft and brake manufacturers have tested and approved for use in their systems.
It's like the rest of aviation, there are standards we follow in the industry that are considered accepted practices, like manufacturers manuals and AC 43-13, you don't have to do it that way but those are considered "approved" methods of aircraft maintenance and repair.
Can you do it any way you want because it's experimental, sure... but please don't imply I am being "morally superior" because I choose to use accepted aviation materials and practices and not the methods "approved" by some folks on VAF.
Ok I'm done.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
Last edited by Walt : 12-06-2017 at 07:41 AM.
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12-05-2017, 08:32 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: US
Posts: 2,251
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Again:
the technician's manual for Parker (Cleveland) brakes says:
Hydraulic Applications - Use fluids compatible with the system
MIL-H-5606 / MIL-H-83282 (Red Oils)
Skydrol ? Only compatible with itself
So...is ATF compatible with aluminum? I'd guess so. Is it compatible with the o-rings? Depends on the o-rings, I guess, but evidence is that it is compatible with the ones we're using. What else is in the brake system for it to be incompatible with?
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12-06-2017, 02:59 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt
there's really no good reason not to use what the brake manufacturers recommend.
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Except ATF is much more available, as several people have pointed out with specific example how 5606 isn't available at their airports...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt
recommending it to others just because you think it ok is just plain wrong IMO.
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Kind of the point of these forums don't ya think? To discuss ideas and learn new things. So long as the points are valid and the discussion is honest, which in this case it seems to be. Welcome to the internet BTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt
Neither Van's nor any brake manufacturer I'm aware of has tested or approves using ATF in their brake systems, but I guess you're just smarter than they are.
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"Hydraulic Applications - Use fluids compatible with the system" Sure seems like at least Cleveland acknowledges there are acceptable alternatives...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt
Until they do, thank you very much but I'll stick with the "approved" fluids.
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That's the spirit! Better to not question things 
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12-06-2017, 04:06 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunwings
For what its worth: It was years ago, but I once spent days replacing parts and rebuilding the brake system on a Cherokee 6 that had been operated for a couple months with automotive (Dot 3) brake fluid. Many of the ?O? rings were very soft and gummy...
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Yes, DOT 3 is nasty stuff, and I didn't mean to suggest that it's OK to use. Only brought it up because it WAS in use in my airplane and seemed to be working fine (at that moment).
Did a bit of Googling trying to find out the chemical differences between 5606 and ATF and didn't find much. I did find that people are using it interchangeably in automotive lifts, sailboat autopilot systems, industrial hydraulics and other stuff - some of it with claimed manufacturer endorsement of interchangeability.
So I guess if we want to ignore the empirical evidence offered by those who are using ATF in their brakes, a simple test would be in order. Cut a "certified" O ring in half and drop a chunk in a jar of 5606, the other in ATF and let it sit for a while. Once the soak period is over, compare each half and see if there is any sign of distress from the ATF half. Swelling, durometer, and general appearance, should be readily apparent.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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12-06-2017, 10:33 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Danville, IN
Posts: 31
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ATF
I don't know what all the fuss is about on using ATF in aircraft brakes. The O rings are compatible with petroleum based oils. ATF is such; any hydraulic oil will work.
I have been using ATF for over 40 years. An engineer friend used ATF in his 310 Cessna for 35 years. I probably have close to 4,000 hours (different airplanes) using ATF in my brakes. Never had a problem! Thank goodness for experimental aircraft.
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