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11-10-2017, 03:59 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Clinton, Indiana
Posts: 997
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How to pick an EFII system ?
I have followed the debate between vendors. Full disclosure, I have a dual CPI and AFP injection for my RV4-0360 project. The logic is, I want proven components for my 2 seat RV that my grandchildren will ride in.
That said, as soon my -4 is flying, I will bring my -3B / Pmag / steam / carb etc. home for a complete refurb. Old guys know you can?t take it with you LOL.
So, the -3B will get full EFII. How will we decide which one to use ????
__________________
Larry DeCamp
RV-3B flying w/7:1 0320 / carb / Pmags / Catto 3b / digital steam
RV-4 fastback w/ Superior roller 360/AFP/G3X/CPI/Catto3b
Clinton, IN
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11-11-2017, 05:14 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Clinton, Indiana
Posts: 997
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Information gathering .
Good points Charlie , a great checklist. The delima I am referencing arises from the observation that you get ?opinions from users? both positive and negative. And claims from sparring venders that I have no way to judge. My post was a rhetorical question but someone from this considerable brain trust may have something to contribute😊
__________________
Larry DeCamp
RV-3B flying w/7:1 0320 / carb / Pmags / Catto 3b / digital steam
RV-4 fastback w/ Superior roller 360/AFP/G3X/CPI/Catto3b
Clinton, IN
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11-11-2017, 10:53 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 145
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I'll say it again, my EFII installation has had incredible support from Mr. Paisley. The quality of the parts are second to none. While my new engine ran flawlessly on the test cell with the EFII system (370 with 210 HP) I have not flown yet.
I couldn't ask more from this system, its quality, and equally as important, the support from Robert.
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11-11-2017, 04:34 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Diego, Ca
Posts: 431
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There certainly are more than two options out there. What works for your mission and budget will certainly take a fair amount of research. Of course everyone has an opinion and people naturally want to defend their choices.
All I can speak to is my own personal experience. My plane starts and runs great. Hot starts are almost comical as the the engine is running the millisecond I touch the start button. It literally starts faster than my wife's BMW. I have almost 200hrs on it, all with the EFII system installed from the start. Robert Paisley has been fantastic to work with. He was helpful through the entire learning process that happens during a build and install. The documentation is spot on, and thorough. The parts are all top quality and the system performs as promised. Looking forward to upgrading to the new system next year.
If I ever do another project, and it has a Lycoming or Continental, there's no doubt in my mind what system I would do.
__________________
John Walker
RV-10 N265WD
"Miss Whiskey Delta"
BPE IO-540, FULL EFII
KMYF, San Diego, Ca.
KEOS, Neosho, MO
Crew Chief
Grove Aero Super Legacy Reno Racer,
twin turbo, IO-540,
full EFII management system!
Race Coordinator STOL Drag coming to Reno, 2019
"so I got that going for me... which is nice."
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11-12-2017, 09:42 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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At the most basic level, selection of any component/system comes down to three things: Requirements, Execution, Reliability.
As it happens, I'm employed as an engineer by the most celebrated aviation design house on the planet (no, it's not Van's), and I have some significant experience with system requirements definition and downselect. I have spent the last 20 years in a world of military specifications, bleeding edge manufacturing, and strict configuration control. My standards for quality are biased by this experience. That said, EVERYBODY in the EA-B world comes up short of what I take for granted as "normal". There's good reason for this, of course. Nobody but the US govenment needs to meet the requirements for combat. And none of us wants to pay $100,000 for a fuel injection system. So the good side of this is manufacterers are free to offer parts that are "good enough", and bypass the significant cost of strict configuration control. The problem with this is that anybody with an idea can become a vendor to us, and "good enough" is too often taken at face value by the offeror. As the E-AB experience moves from "home-building" to "home-assembling", I'm seeing a lot of products offered to us. These range from clever to downright scary, and my reasonably trained eye has shown me enough that I have learned to take ANY unsubstantiated vendor claims with a grain of salt.
The bottom line is that as the consumer in the E-AB market, you are completely responsible for your decision. YOU must define your requirements; don't let a slick sales pitch sway you. YOU must evaluate the technical execution to your satisfaction. If multiple vendors offer the same feature, how and why are they different in execution? If you don't understand the significance of the differences, bring a friend along who's qualified to make that evaluation. Believe me, details matter. And finally, YOU are responsible for the reliability of your aircraft. We don't have MTBF data readily at hand like in the Mil-Spec world, and we CERTAINLY can't trust the sales pitch/promises of the vendor, so we are left with track record and peer reviews. Track record is pretty easy to come by (how many cumulative hours flown by unit X), but equally important is the vendor's willingness to engage in a technical interchange in public. Unlike my professional world, national security considerations are not at play - "Open Kimono" should be the order of the day around here.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Last edited by Toobuilder : 11-12-2017 at 10:06 AM.
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11-12-2017, 10:19 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 621
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If I could do it again I would have loved to work at Scaled Composites. Wanted to go to Test Pilot School but the Air Force wouldn't take pilots from the Reserves, despite my Aero degree. Working with Rutan and crew would have been like being a kid in a candy shop. 30 plus years with the airlines has been a good run though. Sorry for the drift...
I have read these and the other threads about the two main competing systems, as I am eyeing them for the soon to come RV-10 build. I will say the trashing of one vendor by another has been a major turn-off, even if one MAY have superior technical advantages. Seems decidedly unprofessional and petty.
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Krea Ellis
Locust Grove, GA
DA20-A1 "Princess Amelia" - gone home to Amelia Island
RV-7A Phase 2
RV-10 under construction at Synergy Air South
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11-12-2017, 10:22 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder
The bottom line is that as the consumer in the E-AB market, you are completely responsible for your decision. YOU must define your requirements. YOU must evaluate the technical execution to your satisfaction. If multiple vendors offer the same feature, how and why are they different in execution? If you don't understand the significance of the differences, bring a friend along who's qualified to make that evaluation. Believe me, details matter. And finally, YOU are responsible for the reliability of your aircraft.
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Very well said......and this sentence is worth repeating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder
"If multiple vendors offer the same feature, how and why are they different in execution? If you don't understand the significance of the differences, bring a friend along who's qualified to make that evaluation. Believe me, details matter."
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__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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11-12-2017, 10:29 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Not that its relevant to this discussion, but Scaled is not my employer. The salient point of my reference is that I have lots of experience in requirements/procurement for a major aerospace OEM. That's all. Take it for what it's worth.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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11-13-2017, 07:54 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upperdeck
I'll say it again, my EFII installation has had incredible support from Mr. Paisley. The quality of the parts are second to none. While my new engine ran flawlessly on the test cell with the EFII system (370 with 210 HP) I have not flown yet.
I couldn't ask more from this system, its quality, and equally as important, the support from Robert.
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Ditto on above....just some numbers on an average build heavy 7a with a used 53 year old engine and shinny new electrical stuff.....at 15,500 ft 155 KTAS @ 6.5 GPH! check my math, is that a 1001 mile range with no reserve?
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7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
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11-13-2017, 09:06 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,500
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Both vendors are staffed with personable people. If I had to pick a human-factors question, it would be "Will support continue if the principal is no longer there?"
Moving to the technical side of "how to pick":
Are complete installation and operating manuals available pre-purchase?
Are there complete wiring diagrams available? Do the suggested electrical support systems pass a reasonable reliability review?
Although the ECUs may or may not be proprietary, the majority of components are off-the-shelf from the automotive aftermarket.....coil packs, pumps, injectors, wiring connectors, etc. Will the vendors identify those components so a potential buyer may evaluate them?
SDS and EFII offer complete kits tailored to aircraft engines, but there are quite a few other fuel injection choices in the marketplace. Have you evaluated those systems as well? Have you evaluated your own technical competence, i.e. are you well advised to stick with a highly tailored system, or would you enjoy working out the details of the application yourself?
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
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