VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #41  
Old 11-08-2017, 12:52 PM
Mark Dickens's Avatar
Mark Dickens Mark Dickens is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Collierville, TN (KFYE)
Posts: 1,475
Default

This discussion reminds me of the adage that "good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment". I've been flying for 36 years and I've made my fair share of stupid mistakes, but in each case, I never intended to make a bad decision. Weather forecasts are error-prone, equipment doesn't always work, ATC makes errors, etc, etc. The key is knowing how to extricate yourself from a bad situation, and then learning from the error. I appreciate all of the stories I've read here. They make you think.
__________________
RV-8 #81077 Super Slow Build
Dynon Skyview HDX, Titan IOX-370, Dual P-Mags, AFP FM200A FI, Whirlwind 200RV CS Prop
First Flight 11/20/2016
https://www.marksrv8.com
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-08-2017, 01:22 PM
Toobuilder's Avatar
Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,841
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I'm starting to se some posts here getting a bit "Scoldy", and I'd suggest that is counterproductive in a safety discussion...
Thanks Paul.

Those of you who are "scared" at some of these posts: Good! YOU are exactly the audience these types of stories are aimed at. So listen up.

I don't claim to be a particularly skilled aviator, but I have been in the aviation business for 30+ years and a significant portion of that time has been flight ops with fast jets. I'm currently employed as a flight test engineer and paid (comfortably) to assess/analyze safety of flight risk at a clinical level. Even with that professional background, I too talked myself into a horrible decision. And polling my work colleagues - most of whom are bona fide Test Pilots - revealed that I'm far from alone. So fair warning - If you're shaking your head and wondering how many "morons" you're sharing the sky with, well there's a good chance YOU are next. Your success in avoiding dumb decisions coupled with your condescending attitude is making you a prime candidate.

Also, while I'm on a rant:

An instrument rating is a very valuable skill to have. That said, it is not a panacea for bad judgement. It adds another level to your toolbox, but at the same time places your nose further out into the envelope. Yep, we have amazing panels that can navigate with precision, but the reality is these airplanes are extremely limited, delicate, fair weather structures. You're not punching any icing, hail or any other significant weather like an airliner or combat aircraft will. You still have to make good decisions, just like the VFR pilot.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-08-2017, 02:21 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ashland, OR
Posts: 2,973
Default

Out west here, one likely scenario of VFR into IMC is with fire smoke. I've made some pretty marginal flights. On one of them, the vis went from 5 miles and a good horizon to 1 mile and no horizon fairly quickly. But not instantly like going into a cloud. It gives you a little bit of decision time, but you better make the right decision. I had started a descent to maintain good sight of the ground ( I knew I couldn't get on top of it because I knew how high it went) so I made the descent much more aggressive, and turned back.

On another occasion, I was flying east across basin-and-range country with 4 mile vis, but the periodic ridges crossing in front of me gave me a good horizon. At a certain point in central Oregon, the ranges stop and it is just a big basin, which happens to be the same color as the smoke. Now no horizon. In this case I climbed until I had a good horizon on top, although I could only barely see the ground at all.

For me, the key is recognizing the evolution of the conditions and acting soon enough to prevent a complete loss of horizon or ground vision. It is a bit different with smoke because it happens gradually, not suddenly like going into a cloud. But that also makes it insidious. Its easier to say I will keep going unless it gets worse, and it keeps getting worse. And of course next time I might not recognize the trend and make a good decision soon enough.

The "experience" I've gained from these is two-edged. Part of me has gotten more conservative and more willing to turn back. But part of me has gotten more confident that I can recognize the situation and react accordingly. I have to remind myself that this is dangerous stuff, and this thread is really good.

To Dan's point, although I am not instrument rated, I have done a lot of hood work, including a BFR two years previous with 1.5 hrs under the hood with lots of extreme attitude recovery. The rub is not having appropriate equipment in the airplane.

With the advent of glass cockpits, it is now more common to have a good artificial horizon. But I really favor old-fashion round gauges. I don't want a vacuum system. So for now, I have just a Trutrak ADI-pilot. But it is not a "real" AI. It synthesizes AI information from rate gyros updated with other sensors. I'd like to think it would be a good fall-back instrument for inadvertent IMC, and I have practiced a little with it, but I find that it does not always know correctly which way is up. (maybe something wrong with it?) An electric ADI is pretty expensive, but I am pretty seriously considering the investment. Or perhaps succumb to the glass side and get a Garmin G5.
__________________
Steve Smith
Aeronautical Engineer
RV-8 N825RV
IO-360 A1A
WW 200RV
"The Magic Carpet" Flying since Sept. 2009
Hobbs 700
also
1/4 share in 1959 C-182B (tow plane)
LS6-15/18W sailplane SOLD
bought my old LS6-A back!!
VAF donation Dec 2020
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-08-2017, 03:00 PM
BMC_Dave BMC_Dave is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 288
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post

An instrument rating is a very valuable skill to have. That said, it is not a panacea for bad judgement.
Or a requirement for night VFR, like some have suggested
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-08-2017, 03:05 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,474
Default

Steve - a quick bit of feedback for you... You are absolutely right that electric AI's can be expensive, and they remain expensive to maintain over time. Glass, on the other hand, seems to avoid most of the pitfalls associated with flight instruments from the mechanical era. The really nice part about going "glass" is that you get SO much information packed into one small package.

While you reference the Garmin G5 in your comments, there are other options. For ease of installation and ultimate "do it all in one box" capability, I would suggest you look at a GRT Mini-X with the mapping and internal backup battery options installed. This provides redundancy for all your "steam" instruments, as well as redundancy for your navigation solution (built-in VFR GPS and map database) as well as redundancy of electrical supply. There's nothing in the "mechanical" world that can come close to providing this level of functionality in one package, at any price, let alone at a sub-$2K price.

I know this thread isn't about equipment, so let me put a spin on this particular post that is in keeping with the intent of the thread.

When we make bad decisions (it's not a question of "if", Bugsy's post shows us that human factors mean it's a matter of "when", because we WILL make bad decisions), having a reasonable level of equipment is an important factor in being able to recover from or survive that bad decision. It's even better if we spend some time flying behind the equipment, building confidence in it, getting to the point where we can trust it. It's this latter element that makes it easier to transition to the gauges when we've inadvertently poked our nose into the clouds. If the glass in your panel is a familiar friend, you'll not hesitate to look at it and be guided by the information it provides. "Getting on the gauges" faster and easier are two of the best ways to justify installing a modern "all in one" EFIS system.

Last edited by Canadian_JOY : 11-08-2017 at 07:08 PM. Reason: spelling, spelling, always spelling...
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 11-08-2017, 04:03 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ashland, OR
Posts: 2,973
Default

Thanks Mark, I wasn't aware of the GRT option. Not being a fan of glass, I have not researched whats out there much. This seems like a good solution and a half-step toward embracing the glass world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
Steve - a quick bit of feedback for you... You are absolutely right that electric AI's can be expensive, and they remain expensive to maintain over time. Glass, on the other hand, seems to avoid most of the pitfalls associated with flight instruments from the mechanical era. The really nice part about going "glass" is that you get SO much information packed into one small package.

While you reference the Garmin G5 in your comments, there are other options. For ease of installation and ultimate "do it all in one box" capability, I would suggest you look at a GRT Mini-X with the mapping and internal backup battery options installed. This provides redundancy for all your "steam" instruments, as well as redundancy for your navigation solution (built-in VFR GPS and map database) as well as redundancy of electrical supply. There's nothing in the "mechanical" world that can come close to providing this level of functionality in one package, at any price, let alone at a sub-$2K price.

I know this thread isn't about equipment, so let me put a spin on this particular post that is in keeping with the intent of the thread.

When we make bad decisions (it's not a question of "if", Bugsy's post shows us that human factors mean it's a matter of "when", because we WILL make bad decisions), having a reasonable level of equipment is an important factor in being able to recover from or survive that bad decision. It's even better if we spend some time flying behind the equipment, building confidence in it, getting to the point where we can trust it. It's this latter element that makes it easier to transition to the gauges when we've inadvertently poked our nose into the clouds. If the glass in your panel is a familiar friend, you'll not hesitate to look at it and be guided by the information is provides. "Getting on the gauges" faster and easier are two of the best ways to justify installing a modern "all in one" EFIS system.
__________________
Steve Smith
Aeronautical Engineer
RV-8 N825RV
IO-360 A1A
WW 200RV
"The Magic Carpet" Flying since Sept. 2009
Hobbs 700
also
1/4 share in 1959 C-182B (tow plane)
LS6-15/18W sailplane SOLD
bought my old LS6-A back!!
VAF donation Dec 2020
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 11-08-2017, 04:40 PM
Dugaru's Avatar
Dugaru Dugaru is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Richmond VA, USA
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
An instrument rating is a very valuable skill to have. That said, it is not a panacea for bad judgement. It adds another level to your toolbox, but at the same time places your nose further out into the envelope. Yep, we have amazing panels that can navigate with precision, but the reality is these airplanes are extremely limited, delicate, fair weather structures. You're not punching any icing, hail or any other significant weather like an airliner or combat aircraft will. You still have to make good decisions, just like the VFR pilot.
Good point. It's important to remember that a fair number of VMC into IMC accidents happen to instrument-rated pilots who, for whatever reason, weren't prepared for the transition or proficient enough to extricate themselves.
__________________
N929JA, 2007 RV-9A
Based W96: New Kent International Aerodrome
(near Richmond, VA USA)
2021 Dues Paid
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 11-08-2017, 08:41 PM
Bugsy's Avatar
Bugsy Bugsy is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin
Posts: 554
Default Good question

Was it a situation that "it didn't look that bad" or "I'll take a look and see" ??

Thanks again for confessing.

Buz McAbery, CFII
RV9 N50BM
RVS - Tulsa[/quote]

Good question. It was a case of I'll take a look and see. If it's too bad I'll turn around. The 20 knot tail wind compressed the time I had to turn around. That to is a learning point for me. Don't take a look and see, this is a hobby to be taken seriously.
__________________
Paul 'Bugsy' Gardetto, Col, USAF (ret)
Milwaukee, Wisconsin (Timmerman Field)
N377KG - Flying (250 hrs)
RV-7A, Aerosport O-360, WW200RV
Advanced Flight 5400
Avidyne IFD440
Paint by planeschemer.com
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 11-08-2017, 10:59 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
Posts: 2,644
Default IMC

I have been sort of tracking an interesting scenario for many years. That is Unlimited Category completion pilots scud running, on occasion in weather below ILS minimums. Duane Cole did this and got fired from Flying magazine for writing about it. Duane did this all his life. No radio, no gyros. A certain group including an airline Captain arrived in Fond du Lac in very low ceilings after a lengthy excursion 90 degrees in the wrong direction because none of them even had a working compass.
There is also the old story of a world team flight in Europe where one of the pilots supposedly actually kissed the ground after landing. lead said I didn't think that was bad at all. There was so much of this, especially in the 70's and 80's that there has to be something unique to this.
This was mostly in the pre GPS era and the pre cellphone tower era. Way too many small obstructions now.
My partial theory is that most of these pilots never got excited no matter how bad things got. Another factor is that in the Pitts one can do a 90 degree bank 180 at 6G in an incredibly small space. 200' radius would be a reasonable estimate.
This does not translate to high time pilots in non aerobatic airplanes. Far too many of them have crashed while scud running. Anybody recognize the name Frank Tallman?
I am not advocating any of this. I am simply pointing out that a lot of this was going on for a long time so there must be something to it. The only things I can personally offer are NEVER get in the clouds with no gyros and NEVER get caught on top with no gyros.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 11-09-2017, 09:24 AM
Bill Boyd's Avatar
Bill Boyd Bill Boyd is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Landing field "12VA"
Posts: 1,711
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy View Post
Was it a situation that "it didn't look that bad" or "I'll take a look and see" ??

Thanks again for confessing.

Buz McAbery, CFII
RV9 N50BM
RVS - Tulsa
Good question. It was a case of I'll take a look and see. If it's too bad I'll turn around. The 20 knot tail wind compressed the time I had to turn around. That to is a learning point for me. Don't take a look and see, this is a hobby to be taken seriously.[/quote]

Bugsy, when I read that, I wondered why the wx you were not wanting to get trapped in would not be moving along with that tailwind, away from you at... 20 kts??
__________________
Bill Boyd

Hop-Along Aerodrome (12VA)
RV-6A - N30YD - Built '98 / sold '20
RV-10 - N130YD - 50 hours +
65 years running stock DNA
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:10 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.