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Old 11-06-2017, 12:44 PM
dtw_rv6 dtw_rv6 is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Martinsville, IN
Posts: 455
Default I?ll admit I?m rusty

I hadn?t flown under the hood since primary, and that was almost 600 hours ago.

Earlier this summer i flew with a safety pilot in my -6 for over an hour, and i need to do it more often. I can do turns and climbs pretty well with someone beside me... when the chips are down, it wont be any easier. I don?t have an autopilot.

Grab a buddy and fly under the hood for fun! It will save your life someday.

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Old 11-06-2017, 12:50 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,856

Originally Posted by DanH View Post

Every PPL holder is rated for attitude control by reference to instruments; it's a basic PPL standard. I'm pretty sure the survival difference between instrument and non-instrument rated pilots is just regular practice.
I think the difference between simulated and actual IMC can be very real, even if only in ?human factors? or ?psychology?. Here?s an example:
I was giving an IPC to a pretty good, instrument rated, pilot. He was under the hood, night VMC. I had him doing a partial panel approach, AI and DG covered. Up ahead I could see some clouds. He was flying just fine. As we entered the clouds, I said to him, ?We?re in the clouds now so don?t screw up?. His performance immediately went downhill. Not that he lost control, just the opposite: he fixated so hard on the TC and altimeter that he didn?t notice us drifting off course. Even after I pointed that out to him, he was reluctant to bank the aircraft to change the heading. If this can happen to an ifr rated pilot, one can only imagine what happens to a non-rated one.
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:26 PM
sirlegin's Avatar
sirlegin sirlegin is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 324

Glad it all worked out.
One thing I have noticed in all the replies is that no one has stated go/no go flight conditions. There are so many available outlets, FSS, internet etc that asks why would you put yourself in this position in the first place?
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:31 PM
Mr Grinch Mr Grinch is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Land of the Free (Texas)
Posts: 40

I remember discussing this with an aviation attorney while standing in line for dinner at SnF years ago. We both agreed that night VFR flight should require a valid instrument rating. We also both agreed that broaching the subject would get us skewered by the Alphabet Aviation Organizations.

A few months later, JFK Jr spiraled in, and I thought that we might finally get a rule, at least for more training. In my view, having flown for four decades, we need instrument training very early in the PP curriculum, and far more emphasis on real world solutions to inadvertent IMC situations.

Will all of the PC sims available today, controlling an aircraft in IMC should be a non event.
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Old 11-06-2017, 03:49 PM
tfriendshuh tfriendshuh is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Western Slope
Posts: 152

Originally Posted by Mr Grinch View Post

With all of the PC sims available today, controlling an aircraft in IMC should be a non event.


Assuming you have a functional gyro or glass equivalent, Keeping the shiny side up is trivial if you spend any time at all on a PC sim. Navigation, separation, and and preventing CFIT are of course a whole 'nother ball of wax...
[ed. Tim died in the crash of his biplane 9/17/21. Deepest condolences to all his family and friends. V/r,dr]

tim CP ASEL & S

2006 RV-8A N6677F

1943 Boeing Stearman N19BB
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Old 11-06-2017, 03:55 PM
BMC_Dave BMC_Dave is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 288

I had my own incident a while back just before I started my instrument training, though it wasn't technically VFR into IMC. I was over water with some decent precip around me, visibility was otherwise good but it did cause me to lose the horizon. Islands were gone, zero stationary references, just flying in a big dull gray sphere. I hadn't done hood work since my ppl but luckily my training kicked in and as quickly as I could think "Huh, no more horizon." I was looking at the AI.

I set my heading bug to a reverse course as that would take me back to my departure airport. It was quite unnerving to not be able to see it and have to trust my instruments (at that time), but with a 430 and my ipad at least navigation wasn't an issue.

Got back, went for steaks, an hour later it was severe clear.

It surprised me how disorienting it was for a split second there, I was certain that could never happen to me. Not a safety issue, but enough to get my adrenaline going which, as it turns out, is something I do not enjoy feeling while flying. Instrument training makes this a non-issue now, I cannot recommend it enough.
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:44 PM
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Bugsy Bugsy is offline
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin
Posts: 554
Default Good debrief

Nigel. Your right. My go no-go reasoning was flawed. I had th information available and failed to use it. ADSB METARS showed IFR in the vicinity by I thought I could skirt the worse of it.

I consulted on the JFK junior spatial D accident made it on a couple news shows at the time. I should have known better.

Thanks Scroll
Paul 'Bugsy' Gardetto, Col, USAF (ret)
Milwaukee, Wisconsin (Timmerman Field)
N377KG - Flying (250 hrs)
RV-7A, Aerosport O-360, WW200RV
Advanced Flight 5400
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:00 PM
PilotjohnS PilotjohnS is online now
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,815
Default My story

There I was.......flying from santa ynez to hawthorne and went thru the smoke from the brush fire at 4500. Was on flight following. Asked controller if he had any pilot reports on when smoke would clear? He asked me if i was still vfr, I said ya , i could see the ground ( at 3500?) but have no horizon. Immediately he came back to me and said I am clear thru class bravo ( 500 feet above me) and am free to navigate at my discretion, just let him know what I was doing. I did a cirlcling climb up 500 feet to clear the smoke. Was using the artifical hrizon but never felt dis orientated. I was jsut shocked how serious the controler took the phase,? Cant see a horizon?. Last i check, flight was still on file with flightaware.
John S

WARNING! Information presented in this post is my opinion. All users of info have sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for their use.

Dues paid 2021, worth every penny

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95% done, 10% left to go
Electrical/Panel done
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Old 11-06-2017, 10:20 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,841

Originally Posted by Bugsy View Post
... My go no-go reasoning was flawed. I had th information available and failed to use it. ADSB METARS showed IFR in the vicinity by I thought I could skirt the worse of it...
Probably my biggest message when I tell my story is exactly this. Should have known better, but the rationalization to press on is often so strong that you can talk yourself right into a "no win" scenario. I dont think this is a young pilots "invincible" mindset or even some compelling "get home itis" thing... Its FAR more subtle, and can catch even the most rational pilot. Unless you are willing to set extremely conservative limits and NEVER deviate, then all pilots are going to have this battle with the grey area eventually. Most of the time we get by just fine and feel like we are better prepared for the next time. Sometimes however, we nearly kill ourselves and as a consequence KNOW we will be better prepared for next time.
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:23 AM
crabandy crabandy is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ks
Posts: 2,309

Toolbuilder nails it pretty well, we rationalize ourself into a situation.

So there I was, several years of instrument currency and even flirting with proficiency every now and again. Weather triple checked, lots of extra fuel for the IFR flight plan filed with an alternate and VFR areas duly noted. Uncontrolled departure airport reporting OVC 1700 double checked visually, I'm sure center is gonna be busy given the conditions but I don't want to spend an extra 20-30 minutes picking up my clearance via FSS. It's a familiar airport with no terrain and with 1700 OVC I was more than comfortable departing VFR.

Normal startup, runup, taxi and takeoff with my course and frequencies pre-loaded. As I turn on course and switch to center frequency it appears my 1700 OVC/VIS is obscured with some newly formed mist and lower clouds so I level off at 500 AGL to stay clear of clouds. I momentarily thought about returning to land and pick up my clearance through FSS but press on because it's familiar territory.

I confidently called center requesting my IFR clearance, center was busy and I eventually received a "sqwuak and maintain VFR" currently 15 miles from my departure airport still at 500 AGL. Because of my low altitude I can only hear center with the squelch on and seems my transmits are broken as well, I know the farther I go the worse the frequency gets at low altitude.

30ish miles (minutes at RV speed) from my departure airport I still don't have a clearance and even with the squelch on I can barely catch half of what the controller is saying. Seems a NASA test flight is non-radar in a low block altitude in my vicinity that also can't hear center on frequency. Again I contemplate turning around but my closest airport is 30 miles away. Surely I'll get a clearance soon, I press on watching my terrain page as a clearance in a couple minutes is safer than flying back at 500 AGL.

I wasn't shy about my clearance request at this point and eventually had my IFR clearance relayed through another aircraft after center finally determined the NASA test flight position, an IFR clearance never felt so good.

How did I rationalize myself into this situation, as always it was a chain of events:

-familiar airport
-didn't want a FSS delay
-1700 OVC was comfortable for departing VFR and pick up clearance airborne
-squawk code and talking to center feeling I would get a clearance anytime
-I've got a squawk and ATC is expecting me to be on route
-I'm too far away to turn back
-If I could just get my clearance I would be fine

Looking back when I hit the OVC/VIS at 500AGL I should have turned around and landed. I wouldn't think of departing without an IFR clearance in 500 OVC yet I rationalized and flew for 30ish miles because. Judgement isn't taught, it's gained through experience.
RV 7 500 hours and counting
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