Lycoming in place of Subaru

[rvbuilder2002]

As Ross points out, there are numerous Subaru conversions successfully flying.
The key to that success though is that the majority (probably all) of those were built by someone who already had some background with engines and some knowledge of what it would take to make it work (and the rest they researched and learned along the way)
The problem with that is that the majority of people that have installed a Subaru engine (in RV's anyway) did so on the premise that they were purchasing a fully engineered and tested engine installation kit, and that all they had to do was follow the installation instructions and they would have a FWF installation that was modern/state of the art tech., at a lower cost than a typical Lycoming installation (who wouldn't want that?).

Ross, I am sure you can agree that that has never been reality.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY

Ross - there have been several posts here which indicated the Subie fuel system might be a good starting point for a modern electronic ignition/injection Lycoming. Given your experience, and the awful feeling the OP must currently be experiencing, maybe it would be a good idea to brighten up his day by giving a practical analysis of the suitability of the Subie fuel system as a building block for a modern electronic system? I doubt there are any others on this forum with as much experience in this particular arena so I'm sure any info you can share would brighten the OP's day a little bit.

There are several different Sube packages out there and I can't say I like any of the fuel systems they came with. If the OP wanted to use EFI on his Lycoming, I'd start over from scratch probably. You'd need a Duplex fuel valve and return lines to the tanks. He may already have those parts which could be reused. I wouldn't use the pumps that the two main Sube vendors supplied.

If the OP goes carb or Bendix type FI, he can ignore all of this.

[deej]

To echo Ross's comments, there are hundreds of successful Subarus flying so a successful FWF certainly can be done.

The biggest issue, IMHO, was a few companies selling Subaru packages and advertising them as "bolt on and go" when they were in fact not polished and finished packages. This naturally resulted in customer failures, which in turn gave the entire swath of Subaru conversions a bad reputation.

There is no doubt that installing a successful Subaru FWF takes a lot more work than a corresponding Lyc, and a lot more knowledge and skill that frankly most of us don't have. Although I think it is fair game to warn others about the particular companies Subaru conversions that we know have issues, it is far from correct to paint all Subaru conversions with the same negative brush, IMHO.

447BB, you didn't mention what Subaru conversion that you have, but you might find someone on the Yahoo FlySoob group willing to buy the rest for parts to help offset the cost of the Lyc installation. If you need help getting on the FlySoob forum, please send me a PM.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

As Ross points out, there are numerous Subaru conversions successfully flying.
The key to that success though is that the majority (probably all) of those were built by someone who already had some background with engines and some knowledge of what it would take to make it work (and the rest they researched and learned along the way)
The problem with that is that the majority of people that have installed a Subaru engine (in RV's anyway) did so on the premise that they were purchasing a fully engineered and tested engine installation kit, and that all they had to do was follow the installation instructions and they would have a FWF installation that was modern/state of the art tech., at a lower cost than a typical Lycoming installation (who wouldn't want that?).

Ross, I am sure you can agree that that has never been reality.

Yes, I agree with most of what you've said here but we have hundreds of thousands of flight hours on Subarus all over the world proving that the engines are generally sound, outside of some well known issues like HG problems on EJ25s. As I've said numerous times, it's the details in the entire package which makes it work or not. Believe it or not, there are several dozen Egg Subes which have several hundred hours each on them with few if any issues. Most of those owners are not gear heads. RAF built over 400 Gyros with EJ Subes, very few problems. Over 125,000 flight hours on that fleet alone as of 2005. No idea how many now. They are still in production in South Africa, still using Subaru EJ engines.

My estimate is that there is at least 2000 Subaru powered aircraft flying worldwide, making Subarus the second most popular auto engines used in Homebuilts behind VWs.

I've never said the Sube is better than a Lycoming, only that it can work just fine at a fraction of the cost if the conversion is done right. Some folks just don't want a Lycoming up front...

It's simply tiring to listen to people who know little or nothing about engines, lambast auto engines in aircraft when they know squat about the subject or of the many successes. We've been involved with hundreds of auto conversions over the last 23 years. They're not right for lay, mainstream people in most cases but they work just fine for many others and have been failures for many others, generally because they lack the skills to build and develop a reliable package, which is a huge task. Those failures were rarely the fault of the engine in my experience.

All engines have their warts, good and bad points. Subarus generally don't suffer from oil leaks, oil consumption, stuck valves, separated barrels, cam corrosion, loose wrist pin bushings etc. The EJ25 IS well known for HG problems and some cases of valve guides moving in the heads, neither of which are usually sudden or catastrophic. Pick your poison...

[rv8ch]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

...The problem with that is that the majority of people that have installed a Subaru engine (in RV's anyway) did so on the premise that they were purchasing a fully engineered and tested engine installation kit, and that all they had to do was follow the installation instructions and they would have a FWF installation that was modern/state of the art tech., ...

Dat's me. Totally not a cost issue for me, I ended up wasting much more on mine than I spent replacing it with a Lycoming - I just thought I was getting something cooked, more modern, more reliable, etc.

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

I expected this thread to degenerate into a slam the Subie slant which it unfortunately has somewhat. If you don't like them, fine, don't use them.

The OP had a failure, cause unknown, and now he's changing out the engine for a Lycoming- a path also followed by dozens before. If you have something useful to post which would help him make the switch, post away. His decision to change has already been made.

BTW, to counter the negative views of the engine, maybe some of you folks should look at the record of my friend Russell Sherwood in SARL. He's repeatedly destroyed all the Lycoming powered aircraft in his class with his Subaru EG33 powered Glasair many times over the last few years. That's with only 202 cubic inches against 360 and even some 540 powered aircraft. He's nearing 600 hours on it now. He won the "Kick Butt" award at the 2017 Texoma SARL race as well. Can't be a complete *** if it's destroying the mighty Lycomings having almost double (or triple) the displacement. Russell has 5 SARL class wins with 5 races entered- this year alone- "Yesterday the 2017 Indy Air Race took place. This was a challenging race course … there were two energy eating 140 degree turns. I thought this course would cut into our speeds. I made a few drag reducing adjustments and we turned our best time yet. Our Subaru EG33 not only took first in our class but we took first over all racers. Our average speed over the 133 nautical mile closed circuit was 256.66 MPH. The best the competition could muster was 228.73 MPH.
Who is it that says an auto engine can’t sustain continuous high RPM?
We love our Subaru!"

Russell's engine is bone stock except for a low profile, composite intake manifold.

Don't blame engine failures on the engine itself until you know the facts. Most "failures" are caused by improper fuel and spark timing settings or poorly designed ancillaries like PSRUs. The CrossFlow packages as a whole were complete disasters but there was nothing wrong with the core engine design as hundreds of other flying Subarus have proven.

Lycomings suffer catastrophic failures too, we had one reported here a month or so ago which fortunately turned out ok too. Any engine can fail...

Good report Ross, where can the average guy buy one?

Like all race winners, the engines are not stock.

One thing that hooked me on Subaru was how tough the engine was in a car, there was a race some 19 days where a Subaru ran 24/7 for 19 days. Very impressive, one would expect the engine would run at least 4 hours in an airplane without a hitch. Many did not. The transition from car to airplane is not simple, don't make it should like it is.

I tried to make it work for some 400 hours, confidence went down rather than up the longer i tried. I did not have the resources or skill to make it happen. I'm just an average guy who wants to fly, not reinvent the wheel. Lycoming works in an airplane, Subaru for the most part does not.

Yes, there are a few exceptions, but each engine is an exception, one of a kind. There is not cookie cutter Subaru available to drop in an airplane and go fly.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

Good report Ross, where can the average guy buy one?

Nowhere. I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with the Subaru engine by itself for powering aircraft. Don't blame 3rd party parts/mods or people who don't know what they are doing for "engine" failures. Nothing to do with the core engine design.

This thread isn't about where you can buy a reliable, proven Subaru conversion for your airplane.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

Good report Ross, where can the average guy buy one?

Like all race winners, the engines are not stock.

One thing that hooked me on Subaru was how tough the engine was in a car, there was a race some 19 days where a Subaru ran 24/7 for 19 days. Very impressive, one would expect the engine would run at least 4 hours in an airplane without a hitch. Many did not. The transition from car to airplane is not simple, don't make it should like it is.

David, as I said, Russell's EG 33 is dead stock internally and has never been apart to my knowledge. I talked to him at Reno this year.

[steve murray]

I now have just over 700 hours on my Eggenfellner EZ30 H6 with Subaru stock ECU I have 99+% confidence in the engine and always\constantly worry about the Prop gear box (I currently have the gearbox on a 50 hour lubrication cycle and 400 hour tear down\inspect cycle.) To me, the gearbox is the weak link.

Small items in the scheme of airplanes but absolutely enjoy not adding oil ever and not wiping oil off the belly and not having a oily engine. The engine operation is super smooth, super quiet and burns 93 octane ethanol auto fuel. Never have issues with starts. I actually like the water cooled aspect in that I do not worry about preheats, shock cooling etc. I know I am a bit heavier, slower than I should be but I knew this going into the project.

Not sure I would do it over again, I have enjoyed the experience, learned much more than I planned and still probably know much less than I need to know and wasted a lot of money.... I still enjoy tweaking it and am certain there are cooling drag reduction opportunities on my current setup that I want to explore.

Building a 10 now, this will have a Lycoming but still plan to use auto type fuel injection and ignition systems.

Got to love experimental aviation!

[Captain Avgas]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

As Ross points out, there are numerous Subaru conversions successfully flying.
The key to that success though is that the majority (probably all) of those were built by someone who already had some background with engines and some knowledge of what it would take to make it work (and the rest they researched and learned along the way)
The problem with that is that the majority of people that have installed a Subaru engine (in RV's anyway) did so on the premise that they were purchasing a fully engineered and tested engine installation kit, and that all they had to do was follow the installation instructions and they would have a FWF installation that was modern/state of the art tech., at a lower cost than a typical Lycoming installation (who wouldn't want that?).

Ross, I am sure you can agree that that has never been reality.

Hi Scott, it has been my observation over the years that the enthusiasm with which individual builders initially embrace auto conversions is inversely proportional to their understanding of things mechanical. The gear-heads tend to understand the potential problems and are therefore more reluctant to go down that path.

Some people continue to claim that Subaru conversions can be made to work but of the 6 projects that I know of personally not one has been successful and most of them resulted in catastrophic failures.

I look at it this way. Despite what many people say about Jan Eggenfellner's business practices it would be stupid to say that he didn't eventually know a lot about Subaru conversions. He formed Eggenfellner Aviation in 1994 and by 2003 he had manufactured and sold 298 Subaru conversion kits to RV builders alone. By the time he went bankrupt in 2009 he had moved through several Subaru engine models and 3 generations of prop reduction gear boxes. And yet despite having designed and manufactured hundreds of Subaru conversions, and despite the presumably immense knowledge gained along the way, he was unable to achieve a reliable product.

That leads me to surmise that a single individual working in his backyard shed on a one-off Subaru conversion with limited resources is unlikely to fare better than Jan Eggenfellner who had the benefit of personal experience (and field experience) accumulated along the way to producing literally hundreds of conversions.