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  #11  
Old 08-31-2017, 06:10 PM
RVStudent RVStudent is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Stilwell, KS
Posts: 16
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The G3X touch is great for lots of functions but you WILL want to have a dedicated Auto pilot to touch the wheel and quick access to buttons. I would strongly suggest at least leaving room for a GTN650. You will very likely want to move to some IFR flying based on safety and the cross country style you mentioned. Congratulations.
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:28 PM
jliltd jliltd is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Rancho San Lorenzo
Posts: 885
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Ditch the King

Go with single GTR20. It has built-in stereo ICS and standby monitoring

Buy the G3X 10" GDU WITHOUT Sirius/XM built in.

Buy a GDL-52 portable and semi-permanent mount it for Sirius XM weather & music combined with dual-channel ADS-B "in" weather and traffic. It wires right into the GDU. Uses same interface plug as the GDL-39. And talks wirelessly to ipads, phones, aeras etc...

By all means go with the GMC 307 dedicated autopilot control panel.

Buy a used GTX 327 or better yet GTX 32 (remote) Mode C transponder. $400 either one all day long.

Buy a 2020 conpliant GDL-82 ADS-B UAT "out" and install with remote anonymous switch on panel.

Woola!
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:53 PM
ansonfogel ansonfogel is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 7
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JLITD -

I love this way of thinking - would you mind terribly if I picked your brain via the old telephone (OK, not analog, but, well voice none the less)? Or email? I am ansonfogel@gmail.com
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:57 PM
Tankerpilot75 Tankerpilot75 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 534
Default My vote - have your panel built

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVbySDI View Post
Not exactly the same situation as you, but I am doing re-wiring now in my 9. .................

Whatever you decide, know the wiring is quite an undertaking in terms of time to complete. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Steve,
I agree with everything you said however my vote is to have someone like Steinair, Aerotronics, Jesse St. James, or Walt A. build the new panel and if possible even install it. Time and experience equals money. My panel was professionally built by Aerotronics in 2008 when the original owner built my RV7A. I have since (as you know) done a number of aircraft and avionics upgrades that frankly would not have been possible without a well designed and built panel with good schematics and plenty of picture documentation. All my wires are labeled or numbered and connected to plugs that are also labeled and grouped.

This well made panel allowed me to swap out my grips to military style grips and easily wire up A/P, Comm swap and freq swap grip buttons, transponder ident, CP push to talk trigger, and a flap extend/retract switch to the pilot's stick. It also facilitated conversion of my manual trim system to electric trim and wire it to both grips. All this was doable because my original panel wires were labeled and grouped together in well label cannon plugs. Schematics identified the appropriate plugs to connect to and what wires to tap or plug into. Pictures showed where these plugs were and what they looked like. Any time I had a concern or needed help Aerotronics was there to guide me and answer stupid questions.

As you know I recently upgraded to ads-b out with a Garmin 335 purchased from Steinair. I had Steinair build me a conversion harness which again made this upgrade much easier than all the rewiring that the upgrade required. It again provided a harness that was appropriately labeled for further upgrade if desired.

I'm all for saving money but I've discovered the real value of having professionals due the challenging work and me just connecting the dots (so to speak). It's also really great to have knowledgeable people to talk to who are willing to help you because they know your panel.
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Jim Harris, ATP, T38, EC/KC-135A/E/R, 2008 RV7A, 2nd owner, N523RM (2015)
Superior XPIO-360, Hartzel CS prop, Aerotronics panel with Dual GRT Horizon WS, EIS, Garmin 340, 335 w/WAAS gps, Dual 430s (non-WAAS), TruTrak 385 A/P with auto-level, Electric trim, Tosten 6 button Military Grips, FlightBox wired to WS, Dynon D10A w/battery backup, 406 MHz ELT. Custom Interior, New TS Flightline hoses, Great POH!
Retired - Living the dream - going broke!
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2017, 08:46 PM
Ed_Wischmeyer's Avatar
Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansonfogel View Post
1. I prefer the XM source over the ADSB for weather, traffic etc - but having both is a good backup. But **** its expensive.
2. iPad/Lynx/Stratus as permanent, always live backup w/iPad on dash, VS. ADSB vs. Garmin Integrated ADSB/GPS2020 with G5 backup. Of course, again, the separate low cost solution for backup is probably not as reliable. But, it gives me another full EFIS style screen via an Ipad on my right next to the G3x screen, for a lot less moola.
3. Keep an integrate my old King Com with the G3X and GPR20 as Com 1/Com2? Or just pull that hunk of metal out, its big, heavy and in the way and not that easy to integrate without a separate audio panel?
4. Audio panel vs. just internal G3X touch? Budget is busted, so hard to argue for it.
5. Autopilot panel vs. just internal G3x touch?
6. Pay Stein to wire (a lot) of it or no? Worry about their wire and harness lengths being pre made and not to fit, etc?
* Trying to remember to keep it simple, yet, consider usability, safety and pilot workload.
1. XM weather works at all altitudes, everywhere. If you're low over the mountains out west and really need weather info, XM will be there, ADS-B might not. And as you know, sometimes the nearest airport is on the far side of the next mountain. (I used to live in the Arizona high country.) Garmin's newest GDL52 has XM, ADS-B, attitude, and battery backup, pretty sweet.
2. I've got an older iPad that was never very readable in the RV-8. Plus, if you are going to use it for backup attitude, you *need* a quick mount on the panel. Flying with it on your lap for attitude information will probably not work. I no longer even carry the iPad with me in flight, although I used it in the Cessna (which had control wheels, not sticks.) I'd go with the G5, or, if you have the GDL52, maybe an aera660 for backup attitude display. Dunno. I've played with the GDL39/660 combo and it seems to have enough bandwidth as a backup attitude indicator, but then you'd not have it for backup nav.
3. One comm radio with the monitor function (newer Garmins) works just fine, says I with 100+ hours in the -9A.
4. The GTR200 has its own audio panel that is supposedly pretty good. And the panel mount radio can be controlled from the G3X, so you don't need to buy the remote version. Gives you a little extra redundancy.
5. You'll really want the autopilot control panel. If you don't have room for the one with the knobs, the 307, I'll trade you my 305 plus cash for a 307.
6. I bet if you are careful and complete in telling Stein what you want, you'll get it. I was very pleased with them when they cut new metal for my panel. And if you don't have the correct crimping tool$, don't even think about doing your own wiring.

I know that there are solutions for mounting Garmin servos in the RV-8, and I vaguely recall that the -8 and the -4 have the same control stick, but you might want to double check what it will take to get the servos to fit. Hopefully not much, but just to be safe...

In my old RV-4, I had the GPS under the panel behind the stick, and the location was *terrible.* (Did the panel before GPS came out). I think you're wise to put everything you can on the panel. However, you should be able to put the GTR200 and the GDL52 under the panel behind the stick as you wouldn't be accessing them (much) in flight. And I had so much junk on my panel that I made it 2" deeper or so and shortened the control stick -- didn't seem to make much difference in the feel of the plane.

And guess who wants to make those same kinds of upgrades to his RV-8...

Ed
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RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
2020 dues slightly overpaid
Retired - "They used to pay me to be good, now I'm good for nothing."
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:18 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
Default Opposite opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
1. XM weather works at all altitudes, everywhere. If you're low over the mountains out west and really need weather info, XM will be there,

Ed
Except when it's not.
I've had two completely different xm radios require "re-initialization". Apparently this is not uncommon, as there's a dedicated page on xm's web site to do this.
Unfortunately for me, the last time I really wanted it - crossing AZ/NM in monsoon season - the thing wouldn't work. And my fuel stop was out in the boonies with no cell service, no internet, so I couldn't get hold of xm to get it re-initialized. I was so angry I junked the subscription, got adsb-in, and haven't looked back. I do try hard to avoid being low over the mountains and really needing wx info.
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2017, 06:47 AM
N733JJ N733JJ is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
Posts: 233
Default Works for me

I just installed a basic G3X touch system in my 16 year old 8.

I had Stein do the harness, made life easier and would recomm no it. Also, get the drawing, you will need it!

No audio panel needed for a single comm. I am surprised at the audio quality of music through the aux input, my wife loves to crank up some music!

Scott A Jordan
N733JJ
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  #18  
Old 09-01-2017, 06:50 AM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,558
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Bring it to Redline at KHAO (Cincinnati), and get a turn key install in about three weeks..... Experts at G3X installation on RV's.
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SH
RV6/2001 built/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
RV8/2018 built/Sold(sadly)
RV4/bought 2019 Flying
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
JAN2020
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  #19  
Old 09-01-2017, 07:03 AM
jliltd jliltd is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Rancho San Lorenzo
Posts: 885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansonfogel View Post
JLITD -

I love this way of thinking - would you mind terribly if I picked your brain via the old telephone (OK, not analog, but, well voice none the less)? Or email? I am ansonfogel@gmail.com
ansonfogel,

I am a true proponent of using a Mode C transponder linked to a UAT-out transmitter for ADS-B out compliance. Cheap, effective and the ability to squawk anonymous when VFR to maintain personal privacy. The new GDL-82 combined with any legacy Mode C transponder is perfect for this. You even use the same single original transponder antenna. And don't over-pay for 1090ES "out" equipment not required unless you have twin turbos in your RV-4 or plan on crossing the pond to Europe (with 12" N Numbers - - rare for an RV). Be advised Mexico has no current plans to implement ADS-B out requirements and at this time Canada plans to mandate for only one geographic area. Again, you probably don't have 12" N numbers anyway. Finally, with 1090ES out you pay more to loose your privacy option for VFR operations. Nothing to hide but if you're flying around VFR letting the world knows where you are, how high you are, and how fast you are going that should suffice, thank you. They (ATC and FlightAware, directed marketers, kid on a computer etc...) don't need to know your personal details that don't have anything to do with your flight. Anonymous mode under UAT gives you your privacy without affecting safety.

Don't ever ask an avionics manufacturer or avionics retailer if you should buy the latest new avionics gee whizz box. Their answer is predictable. I proudly count myself within their ranks as a technology geek and system installer. In their defense they are generally good folks who are consumed with the latest technology and their enthusiasm for the shiny boxes and blinking lights can cost you money.

For the RV4, space is tight. So remote mounting whatever you can makes sense. I have transitioned from a die hard steam guage type to a mix of glass panel with good old analog ASI, Altimeter still in place as backups. I also had liked seeing my avionics and twiddling knobs. And now I am at the point of the more integrated approach with as little on the panel as possible with a few exceptions, like the dedicated GMC 307 autopilot controller.

If I were doing a personal RV4 I would go pretty much as I described in my "Woola!" post above with the addition of an aera 660 surface mounted with a RAM ball base. Alternatives (or additions) to the 660 could be your smart phone or a small tablet running Garmin Pilot or ForeFlight (which are compatible with the GDL-52). Your passenger could link their smart phone, tablet or aera to the GDL-52 also. The new GDL-52 is a magic box with everything included. I do have an Aviat Husky where I dedicated an aera 660 mounted in the rear cockpit. I would save that for later, if ever, in your RV4. The area 660 is basically a mini G3X without the flight instruments or air data. It was designed by the same team. The GDL-52 has a backup battery and provides horizon/AHRS and synthetic vision on top of the prior mentioned music, weather and traffic features to the aera 660 and Android or Apple devices.

I might spring for Sport version of the VPX system but that is attributable to my geeky tendancys. It is costly and you strike me as a more practical type. The main advantage of the VPX is electrical systems monitoring integrated into the G3X display. If you were outfitting a full IFR set-up in a less sporty more higher market value airframe then I would encourage the VPX. But for a fun low-cost very capable VFR RV4 i would suggest conventional breakers and busses. Especially on a budget.

With a makeover of this scope it will be faster and easier to re-wire the whole panel including bus bars, etc. Trying to salvage any existing wiring or switching out circuit protection designs is folly and will cost more in the long run. Using one of your mentioned panel builders will take care of that with a turn key replacement. Another advantage of using a professional panel shop is they will supply complete schematic diagrams with labeled wiring. Don't get too hung up on harness lengths. These guys know their stuff and can consult best and common placement of LRUs with appropriateness service loops. Once consulted you can run a string or seamstress measuring ribbon between components for harness lengths. With the G3X CAN Bus design the panel builder will designate beginning and ending devices (terminations) at the ends of the daisy chain. Again, let them help you with the design as that, along with aftermarket support, is a big part of what you get for your money.

I would guess that if you call around you might find different levels of accommodation from different panel shops. Reputation via word of mounth and community experience is important. It's also important to work with one who is open to giving you exactly what you want and not try to steer you into doing what they want. A friend of mine had a "our way or the highway" response from one shop who was insisting on only certain components from certain manufacturer with expensive options my friend didn't need or want.

Finally, if you have any desire to install all or a portion of your panel and you have the wherewithal and time you may well consider attending the AEA's Experimental Avionics Installation class in October in Lee's Summit, MO. Lots of fun. Highly recommended.

The GDL-82 ADS-B out unit and GDL-52 portable everything in unit, announced at OSH can be pre-ordered but will not be ready for delivery for about a month minimum. Your RV4 is functional for now so you have the luxury of time on your side to fully explore the possibilities. Upon which you have started in this thread by your initial post.

Jim

P. S. The GTX 327 and GTX 32 are functionally equivalent. The only differencenis the tray and the GTX 32 doesn't have a face plate. So if you have a conventional GTX 327 it can be remote mounted, just like the GTX 32. The G3X won't know the difference and will remote control either the same way.
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Last edited by jliltd : 09-01-2017 at 07:16 AM.
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  #20  
Old 09-01-2017, 07:57 AM
rmartingt's Avatar
rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jliltd View Post
I am a true proponent of using a Mode C transponder linked to a UAT-out transmitter for ADS-B out compliance.
Anyone know if someone out there makes an all-in-one 978 out box? I really want to be able to squawk VFR and not have everyone know my tail number, but it seems kind of silly go to buy two separate boxes for that.

It seems like the market is mostly dominated by 1090 boxes.
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