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  #11  
Old 06-28-2017, 06:02 PM
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jthocker jthocker is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
Ah Katie, you obviously haven't discovered the joys of a true Plug and Plan panel! Connectorize everything except the big fat power and ground leads. Make your entire panel so it unbolts from the aircraft structure. Avionics mods are a breeze when done this way!
Sorry, gotta agree with Katie here. 3 weekends for a glass IFR panel! I'd like to see that!
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  #12  
Old 06-28-2017, 07:51 PM
6 Gun 6 Gun is offline
 
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Smile Panel

That's why I love my Approach Fast Stack Pro Hub.
Bob
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  #13  
Old 06-28-2017, 09:56 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Originally Posted by jthocker View Post
Sorry, gotta agree with Katie here. 3 weekends for a glass IFR panel! I'd like to see that!
Depends how modular you build it, and what you started out with and what you want in the end. Sure, if you want to add the whole shebang including audio panel, a pair of GNS-type navs, three displays etc it's going to take longer. For a basic IFR panel it doesn't take very long if well organized.

Then again there's always the airplane that doesn't have any provisions in it for autopilot servos or even a PTT on the stick - yes, those do take longer. Again, it depends where you start and where you want to finish. Making the panel modular and fully connectorized saves a ton of time when it comes to putting it in the airplane and making things light up (ah, that's the backlights, not the big sparks! LoL)
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  #14  
Old 06-29-2017, 06:36 AM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
Not so in the Experimental world. You'll be amazed what a weekend's work can do to transform a basic steam gauge VFR panel into a glass panel, then another weekend or two to add IFR capability.
Sorry but statements like this don't reflect any form of reality, and unfortunately, some folks will read stuff like this and take it as gospel.

Replacing a full panel with a new modern IFR glass cockpit CANNOT possibly be done in a few weekends unless perhaps you are superman. Even if you purchased a complete panel already wired and ready to go (which took more than a few weekends to build) it would take you more time than this to mount all the LRU's, install the panel and run all the associated aircraft wiring to get it all working. Heck it takes me a full day just to do all the setup, testing and calibrating after I'm all done with an installation.
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Last edited by Walt : 06-29-2017 at 06:51 AM.
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  #15  
Old 06-29-2017, 06:47 AM
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jthocker jthocker is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
Sorry but statements like this don't reflect any form of reality, and unfortunately, some folks will read stuff like this and take it as gospel.

Replacing a full panel with a new modern IFR glass cockpit CANNOT possibly be done in a few weekends unless perhaps you are superman. Even if you purchased a complete panel already wired and ready to go (which took much more than a few weekends to build) it would take you more time than this to mount all the LRU's, install the panel and run all the associated aircraft wiring to get it all working. Heck it takes me a full day just to do all the setup, testing and calibrating after I'm all done with an installation.
Thanks Walt!

I have to be very careful these days!😜
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  #16  
Old 06-29-2017, 06:57 AM
Yobo Yobo is offline
 
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New panel was easy for me -- visit Stein, order from Stein, give airplane to Mutha Thocker and a few months later, a new glass cockpit. Just send $$$.

I think Mutha got lots of grey hair from my Rocket, but it sure rocks now!

Buy the plane, fly as is for a bit. Figure your needs in avionics and fix later based on need, wishes and $$$ available. I flew my round dials 2 years before Mutha ripped out all wires and replaced with all Garmin products. Most planes have more in their avionics then will be used. I have full IFR, but I prefer being in the bar when the WX is bad.
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  #17  
Old 06-29-2017, 12:38 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
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I suspect Jon and Walt missed my point about the power of a modular, connectorized Plug and Play design being able to minimize aircraft down-time. Yes, the actual panel fab time doesn't change very much, but the all-important aircraft down-time really gets a boost from a modular approach to avionics and instrument panels.

In an aircraft designed for modularity, avionics upgrades can be fast and relatively easy. In an aircraft that's already connectorized, a pre-fab panel can be installed very quickly - yes, a weekend is entirely do-able to get the new panel in and lit up. If one applies some forethought, the panel itself can be designed to be modular, with connectors in strategic locations. As an example, when the audio panel was initially installed in a basic VFR panel, all the ins/outs for COMM2 and NAV2 could have been wired to, for instance, inexpensive DB9 connectors - installing a new radio using a pre-wired rack can be done quickly because one no longer has to dive into the audio panel wiring. Similarly, from a mechanical perspective, if the panel is built as a mechanical frame with removable bolt-on inserts, the mechanical installation can be pre-fabbed and ready to bolt into the airplane.

I agree that an airplane that was put together using straight point-to-point wiring is going to take some time to modify to a modular design, but once the aircraft side of the wiring is on connectors future updates can go very, very quickly indeed. If you're not already selling your customers on the value of modularity, now might be a good time to start. The real value is in the way it reduces aircraft down-time when doing future upgrades. With the rate of innovation and change in experimental avionics, the payback cycle for designs built with modularity in mind is short!
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  #18  
Old 06-29-2017, 01:07 PM
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jthocker jthocker is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
I suspect Jon and Walt missed my point about the power of a modular, connectorized Plug and Play design being able to minimize aircraft down-time. Yes, the actual panel fab time doesn't change very much, but the all-important aircraft down-time really gets a boost from a modular approach to avionics and instrument panels.

In an aircraft designed for modularity, avionics upgrades can be fast and relatively easy. In an aircraft that's already connectorized, a pre-fab panel can be installed very quickly - yes, a weekend is entirely do-able to get the new panel in and lit up. If one applies some forethought, the panel itself can be designed to be modular, with connectors in strategic locations. As an example, when the audio panel was initially installed in a basic VFR panel, all the ins/outs for COMM2 and NAV2 could have been wired to, for instance, inexpensive DB9 connectors - installing a new radio using a pre-wired rack can be done quickly because one no longer has to dive into the audio panel wiring. Similarly, from a mechanical perspective, if the panel is built as a mechanical frame with removable bolt-on inserts, the mechanical installation can be pre-fabbed and ready to bolt into the airplane.

I agree that an airplane that was put together using straight point-to-point wiring is going to take some time to modify to a modular design, but once the aircraft side of the wiring is on connectors future updates can go very, very quickly indeed. If you're not already selling your customers on the value of modularity, now might be a good time to start. The real value is in the way it reduces aircraft down-time when doing future upgrades. With the rate of innovation and change in experimental avionics, the payback cycle for designs built with modularity in mind is short!
Mark, with all due respect, I can't tell from your signature or your profile what you have built, building or upgraded. I believe the OP was talking about an upgrade. Your scenario only makes sense if it was incorporated into the original build. As for future upgrades, my customers upgrade path is easy already.
I install Garmin for them!😜
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  #19  
Old 06-29-2017, 03:00 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
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Jon - likewise, with all due respect, I won't get into a war of credentials. I will, however, state that a retrofit/upgrade that continues with point-to-point wiring doesn't bring as much value over the long run as an upgrade that makes the aircraft wiring and the instrument panel more modular. The modularity is what makes that next Garmin panel go in so quickly and easily as a bolt-on (if it's the Garmin flavor you prefer).
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  #20  
Old 06-29-2017, 08:51 PM
Tankerpilot75 Tankerpilot75 is offline
 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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Default I'm not an avionics person BUT

It appears to me that a bit of a "pixxing contest" is starting to develop here so I'll just add my "two cents."

Avionics upgrades and electrical system mods are definitely not easy for most of us who've not gained professional expertise or training. However, my limited experience of hard wiring (FlightBox) ads-b "IN" to my GRT EFIS, conversion from manual trim to electric trim and installation and wiring of a trim servo hub with two multiple button military style Tosten grips (Coolie hat 4 way trim, transponder ident, PTT, A/P engage/disengage, flaps, comm and freq swap), adding LED landing lights, hunting down occasional sensor problems/faulty connections, and now in the process of changing out a Garmin GTX 330 (non-WAAS) transponder to the GTX 335 transponder; has taught me the "value" of a well designed and built panel that utilizes modular plugs, labeling of wires, and a good schematic that identifies how and what is wired to these modular plugs? Quick and easy weekend projects - NO! Doable over a few weekends - DEFINITELY!

My electrical experience (prior to owning the RV7A that I now have) was basically limited to changing light bulbs, minor lamp repair, and working on my autos. However the SteinAir videos, watching other UTube videos, talking to (pestering) folks like Pat Hatch, Jason Smith, Greg Tomain, Eric, Jeff Defow, and Stein Bruch gave me enough confidence (or stupidity) to tackle these various projects. Sometimes you have to be smart enough to "stop working" and call for help! In all cases, my Aerotronics professionally built panel enabled the accomplishment of my goals.

So I will say "your all correct!" Modularity is key to facilitating reasonable and maybe unreasonable upgrades. But so is good wire labeling practices and updated, well drawn schematics. Both Aerotronics and SteinAir excel at these panels. A good multimeter is also required along with the purchase of the required tools, molex connectors and pins, d-sub connections and pins, etc.

But another caveat is needed. A willingness to go to professionals (often) when you don't understand something and the recognition that some things (parts of an upgrade) are better left to the pros. After all, you are not only paying for their experience but also their willingness to get on their backside and work upside down in tight spaces (or wire up a conversion harness so you don't have to get upside down for as long as it would have been required).

Experimental aircraft are great teaching machines and the RV community is a great sharing group. I've found the advertisers on the VAF Forum are truly special folks who really care about customer service. The RV grin doesn't come from just flying the aircraft, it also comes from the educational experience of owning one.
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