Poor Riveting

[KRviator]

Now, a lot of my rivets while not pretty I'm quite confident are safe, but looking at some of those photos from the -7 makes me wonder just how strong the structure actually is to be able to accommodate such crappy quality...And gives me a pretty good feeling that I am not going to fall out of the sky nor have my tail twist off.

With the amount of help available,even if it is only "I made a meal of these rivets, what did I do wrong?" posts here, there really isn't an excuse for that kind of construction these days. For something like an airplane, you should never be too proud to be afraid of asking for help, nor should you shy away from constructive criticism (pardon the terrible pun)!

By and large, RV'ers are a friendly bunch and willingly offer assistance, often for the price of a smile and a "thanks mate". I'm sure most of us here would be happy to give up a weekend to show a new bloke how to set a decent rivet, or how to get into an awkward space, or many others with his tail kit than have something like these two planes flying around, because when one of them falls out of the sky, it's "Another experimental plane has crashed...." leading to more grief we don't need from the FAA/CAsA.

[vic syracuse]

Originally Posted by Bavafa

Is the plane in the second set of pix of a RV7 or RV12? Considering how many pop rivets it has, this could be a RV12
sad it is but glad it is getting noticed and brought to the attention.

It's an RV-7. Pop rivets are OK once in a while, especially if the correct strength pop rivet is used.

As for the fuel tanks being sealed that was asked in another post, the proseal in the tanks was gobbed on pretty good, as in A LOT. I'm sure it covered a lot of bad rivets, but I did not see any evidence of leakage.

Again, I posted these in the spirit of learning and not "look at how bad this was." As a matter if fact, in the spirit of continuous learning I am headed to Don Rivera's Injection class at Airflow Performance the first week of March. I know Dan Horton attended it last year and told me it was really great and I should go. I'm always willing to listen to advice from others, especially those I respect. I hope to see some of you there.

Vic

Vic

[N546RV]

Originally Posted by Andy who?

This makes me feel much better about the quality of my work.

My thoughts exactly. Pragmatically, I feel that my rivets are pretty good, but there's always that little voice in the back of my head whispering "what if you screwed up eeeeveryyyythiiiiing?" But seeing stuff like this definitely helps put my work in perspective. Yeah, I screw up, but I don't think I've ever left a rivet like some of these in place.

[airguy]

I was one of those guys questioning everything as well - and while my airplane certainly is not going to go up for any awards, after seeing the homebuilt area at Oshkosh and looking closely at some of the airplanes there, I at least have a warm fuzzy feeling about my build quality now and can fly my airplane relatively confident it's not going to fall out of the sky unless I do something stupid.

[MikeyDale]

I'm not condoning sloppy workmanship and I would probably run away from this pre buy as fast as I could!....But, the first two pieces I ever riveted together was just scrap when I was experimenting and learning how to use my tools. I did some pretty pathetic riveting on that piece. Maybe no bent over rivets but all of them were either overdriven or under driven. Then I proceeded to try to tear those pieces apart and was amazed at how strong they were! I wound up tearing the sheets trying to separate them!....Still, sloppy workmanship says a lot about the rest of the build.

[deene]

I'm a friend of the potential buyer of the 7A that Vic inspected (a very good job, BTW).

After a short discussion that even at a very low price, it wasn't a viable buy and we walked on the deal...

As a Tech Counselor, I ve seen a few really bad builds among many good builds. The disappointing ones are when I get call late in the build.

[Billythekid]

thanks for the heads up. to be fair all aircraft have some "dings" I feel way more confident in my first attempt at building after seeing flying craft and wiggle rivets. my A and P instructor, Larry Pink, probably the best teacher I have ever had, said" if you do your very best it will always be good enough"
and "our least acceptable level of standard should be the FAA standards" that said I am going back into the cave with the confidence that I didn't know I had and am thankful for the post of the workmanship and now have full confidence that I am good and vans aircraft are over engineered, thankfully. so build on and blue skies

billythekid

[bruceh]

I think much of the poor workmanship is not just technique, but inferior or inadequate tools.

If you want a high quality build, then be prepared to buy high quality tools. The best example of this is getting a tungsten bucking bar. Amazing difference in the quality of driven rivets over using a steel bar. Use some heavy duty clear packing tape to help hold the rivets in place as you buck them. Again, having just a bit of help with this "third hand" can make all the difference while you align the gun and bar with the other hands. Having a pneumatic squeezer is another spendy item that pays off with beautiful consistency in all of your rivets. The adjustable throat was ridiculously expensive for a small piece of steel, but it is worth it when you don't create rows of bad rivets. Get all of the required yokes (more $$$ for a hunk of steel) and your ability to set rivets in different situations becomes easier. I could go on and on.

If you want to build a quality airplane, then be prepared to tool-up and spend the money. It is well worth the investment.

If you are still having riveting issues, then please reach out and find some help before you continue.

[ChiefPilot]

Originally Posted by bruceh

The best example of this is getting a tungsten bucking bar. Amazing difference in the quality of driven rivets over using a steel bar.

I agree in general with the principle of high quality tools, but are you really suggesting that it's not possible to do a good job riveting with steel bucking bars?

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by bruceh

I think much of the poor workmanship is not just technique, but inferior or inadequate tools.
ue.

Good tools help. But the root cause here is a builder who was willingly to accept work which clearly (and examples are shown in Vans' manuals) was below acceptable standards. I can see arguements over perfect vs good enough; but underdriven, bent over rivets? I'd really like to know the builder's thinking here.