More Missing Rivets

[DonFromTX]

Thanks, there are several ways to look at it. MAYBE I am the only builder that has ever missed a rivet, since I am the only one talking about it. Then again MAYBE I want to point this out for the benefit of others, and to be sure critical remarks just don't bother me. Realize that with over 13000 of them, getting interrupted or sloppy can happen. Back when I inspected other peoples planes, I thought I had found a sloppy builder, now I see it a bit differently.

.

Originally Posted by rjtjrt

Kudos to Don for being so open with his missing rivets, for the benefit of all.
Respect.

[Mich48041]

I know an RV-12 builder who left several rivets out of a wing rib.
And he left a few clecos in holes in another location.
The plane had been flying several hours before a mechanic hired by a new owner found the mistakes.
I admire Don for not only being honest, but for double checking his work before first flight.

[joedallas]

Don
Thanks for letting us know that we are not all perfect.

I read a drawings before I start the work and again when I do each step
I try to pay close attention to the drawings and not to miss anything
I finished the flight control system a few days ago and decided to reread all the steps and check them off on my working copy of the drawings.

To my amazement I got to 36.06 Step: 01 and saw the Note: - Drill #30 for MSP-42 Rivets.

Somehow this did not register in my brain and I used LP4-4 rivets.
I will change these rivets.

I will re-read each drawing and check them off as I did with Section: 36.XX

Not so perfect
Joe Dallas

[RFSchaller]

Kyle,

Unless the DAR has built one of the aircraft he is inspecting I doubt the inspection is anything but cursory. Let's face it, he's not doing an annual. He has about two or three hours to inspect a fairly complex machine --- if he goes beyond the paper. In a perfect world maybe the DAR could ensure perfection in the build, but I think any builder that thinks an AW certificate ensures a perfect build is deceiving themself.

There is a saying one of my early CFIs said to me when he was quizzing me on right of the way scenarios. I was quoting the FARs like a good little student when he looked at me and said: "Always remember you can be right, but you don't want to be DEAD right!" The point being don't rely on the way things should be, rely on what they are.

Rich

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by KALEWIS

And it passed an AW inspection how?
.....

I had my plane inspected by the local FSDO. They made it VERY clear that for them it is a paperwork exercise. They gave me some story about an FAA inspector being sued after an accident because they were supposed to "inspect" the plane. Apparently that is not the case.

The best inspectors you can have is your EAA chapter and others who have built planes. Invite them over, get some pizza and beer out, and hand them all a pad of paper, pen, and roll of painter's tape to mark anything they may find. Let them tag and document anything they have a question about. You just sit back and eat and drink and let them have at it.

The Charlotte, NC EAA 309 chapter had such good reputation with the FSDO, they felt we could do a better job than any of their inspectors and we knew the regs better. What a great working relationship we had with them and the chapter produced some outstanding and safe aircraft!

Originally Posted by Mich48041

...
I admire Don for not only being honest, but for double checking his work before first flight.

Ditto for me!

[KALEWIS]

To all of you who respect Don for being "honest" with his mistakes

As one who has followed his build here and on his public kitlog, my opinion is a little more sincere to the overall safety of his situation. There are a number of things I personally differ with when it comes to equipment and modifications he has made to the basic airframe. I am not an engineer. However, some of the modifications he has incorporated seem a little untested for my taste. And if he is comfortable with them. Fine. On the other hand I will always call attention to someone who may be on the edge for safety sake. There is another respected poster in these forums who has done the same ( recall a pre-buy where he found numerous mistakes and poor build quality ).

As far as DAR's and AW inspections .... if your only getting a paperwork inspection, that's a terrible thing in my mind. Find an inspector who will look at your airplane and the way it's put together. Don, your first scheduled inspection was a bust.... even if it was a miscommunication, it was portrayed that the inspector refused to look at your airplane. I don't know the details, so I will not comment any further. If you choose to disclose that... up to you.

I am all for being open about mistakes we make. Read my blog. There are mistakes made with our -12. Yes. Learn from them. But, when the same mistake has been made several times ... I question the other things too. I have been involved in 2 other -12 builds. One of them was a kit 80% complete that turned out to be a big headache for the purchaser. Because of poor build quality, a lot of things had to be redone before I would consider it safe.

So , in saying that an experienced A&P OR EVEN a tech counselor should take another look at something, for safety sake , is taken as insult or seems unjust, well......Maybe there is something trying to be swept under. If you have had someone else look at your work and you are confident in it, great... this hobby has enough blemishes from disregarded safety concerns. Many times other voiced concerns have fallen on deaf ears.


My bottom line
If I see something unsafe. I'm going to call it out. Isn't that what is preached by our community ?

[DonFromTX]

Thanks Kyle for your comments - I think. In the interest of clarification, I felt I should point out some facts that perhaps you were aiming at me. You painted me as one to try my untested ideas, not true at all. The changes I have made are ALL others ideas and are tested enough to satisfy me, with one exception, I did put a blue throttle knob with a USA Dollar coin embedded into it, I can change that if it don't work out well.
As EAA chapter president, we had no other place to meet, so during most of this build, once a month the chapter met a couple feet from my project, which included lots of looking it over, we have four Tech Counselors in the chapter along with other builders. I would bet NO RV12 has had the degree of inspections this one has! In addition twice a representative from the local FSDO looked it over as he had the meeting of aviators in my home!
The "failed" DAR visit was not quite as you suggested, he stayed in my house for several days, a few feet from the project, he DID look it over well and made NO suggestions for improvements or changes. The only issue was that after he had told me that the wings should be off, his supervisor told him he could not issue an AW with the wings off. He wanted $1200 to come back and see if I could install the wings properly, as I had several times before. I then chose a DAR that had recently retired from the local FSDO and was recommended by them. I knew of no way to find a more qualified DAR. Neither DAR had ever seen an RV12!

QUOTE=KALEWIS;1147404]To all of you who respect Don for being "honest" with his mistakes

As one who has followed his build here and on his public kitlog, my opinion is a little more sincere to the overall safety of his situation. There are a number of things I personally differ with when it comes to equipment and modifications he has made to the basic airframe. I am not an engineer. However, some of the modifications he has incorporated seem a little untested for my taste. And if he is comfortable with them. Fine. On the other hand I will always call attention to someone who may be on the edge for safety sake. There is another respected poster in these forums who has done the same ( recall a pre-buy where he found numerous mistakes and poor build quality ).

As far as DAR's and AW inspections .... if your only getting a paperwork inspection, that's a terrible thing in my mind. Find an inspector who will look at your airplane and the way it's put together. Don, your first scheduled inspection was a bust.... even if it was a miscommunication, it was portrayed that the inspector refused to look at your airplane. I don't know the details, so I will not comment any further. If you choose to disclose that... up to you.

I am all for being open about mistakes we make. Read my blog. There are mistakes made with our -12. Yes. Learn from them. But, when the same mistake has been made several times ... I question the other things too. I have been involved in 2 other -12 builds. One of them was a kit 80% complete that turned out to be a big headache for the purchaser. Because of poor build quality, a lot of things had to be redone before I would consider it safe.

So , in saying that an experienced A&P OR EVEN a tech counselor should take another look at something, for safety sake , is taken as insult or seems unjust, well......Maybe there is something trying to be swept under. If you have had someone else look at your work and you are confident in it, great... this hobby has enough blemishes from disregarded safety concerns. Many times other voiced concerns have fallen on deaf ears.


My bottom line
If I see something unsafe. I'm going to call it out. Isn't that what is preached by our community ?[/quote]

[rzbill]

From a constructive viewpoint, I am reminded of a thread from years ago asking builders to note their favorite tool.

I responded that a yellow highlighter was my favorite because I used it to mark the areas (including every rivet) on the prints that were complete. Gives a sense of accomplishment plus for me, it made it very easy to see the items yet to do.

[60av8tor]

Originally Posted by rzbill

From a constructive viewpoint, I am reminded of a thread from years ago asking builders to note their favorite tool.

I responded that a yellow highlighter was my favorite because I used it to mark the areas (including every rivet) on the prints that were complete. Gives a sense of accomplishment plus for me, it made it very easy to see the items yet to do.

Similarly, I keep a spreadsheet with every page and step # that I have not yet completed. I did very little building over the past year and I am just now getting my head back into the game. Just recently I read through the previous 46 sections to see if there is anything I may have overlooked. No system is 100% fail proof, but I'm fairly confident with my system.