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01-31-2017, 08:36 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Laurel, DE
Posts: 347
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Good to know that I'm not the only one with technical - non-AD related issues awaiting a response!
__________________
Ralph E. Capen
RV6AQB N822AR @ N06
"Patience"
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01-31-2017, 09:41 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 78
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I copied and pasted the Cessna Pilots email and sent it to Mark Baker and asked if it was what he said. Here is the response;
Hi Brian,
Mark Baker has been traveling extensively lately and I have been asked to respond to your email.
It is our understanding that NavWorx is still in business, and has been discussing the proposed AD with the FAA in hopes of coming to a resolution. Other than that, the FAA continues to review the comments posted to the docket in response to the proposed AD, and we urge members to remain patient during this process.
Regards,
Tom
Thomas A. Zecha, Jr.
Manager, AOPA Pilot Information Center
Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association
tom.zecha@aopa.org
Phone: 301-695-2211
421 Aviation Way, Frederick MD 21701
www.aopa.org
Quote:
Originally Posted by pukingdawg
There is some new info on the Cessna Pilots Association forum from a person whose wife worked at Navworx. Unless Navworx (Bill) has a rather large sum of money to fight this, I'm getting the feeling that their doors may never open.
Just hope maybe someone will pick up the pieces.
Larry
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__________________
Brian Dal Porto
RV-7 Tipper
IO-360A3B6D
Whirl Wind 200RV
Dynon Skyview Touch
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01-31-2017, 10:13 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Just strictly a FYI thing, I checked the last time Bill logged into VAF-----earlier this month.
So, it would appear he is at least monitoring the discussions here, if not contributing to them. His last actual post was about a year ago.
Bill-------any input would be appreciated.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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01-31-2017, 12:04 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Laurel, DE
Posts: 347
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Maybe we need a separate topic just for Bill! We can all put our stuff in there!
__________________
Ralph E. Capen
RV6AQB N822AR @ N06
"Patience"
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01-31-2017, 06:15 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 68
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Well as a very early adopter .. I've now gone through all the 5-stages of grief and am finally at acceptance.
Based on the complete lack of customer service/updates, ridiculous tirade on the website blaming everyone but themselves, and no forthcoming communications with a solution, I no longer believe we'll get a solution from Navworx.
That said, I'm researching replacement options and am shocked that the cost still remains as high as it is. The LEAST expensive solution I can come up with is to do the ES upgrade to my 330, then hope Trig quickly releases their new low cost certified GPS as a position source for the 330, since my 430 isn't good enough. Then find a ADS-B in source for the Grand Rapids screens, and maybe with ARINC for the 430.
I'm wondering why other providers like Dynon etc. don't release their ADS-B and GPS solutions for those of us who don't have their hardware. Seems like a good income source!
Wonderful!
DWS
RV6-A N142DS
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01-31-2017, 06:31 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwschaefer
I'm wondering why other providers like Dynon etc. don't release their ADS-B and GPS solutions for those of us who don't have their hardware. Seems like a good income source!
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To use a GPS as your ADS-B OUT position source, you must test it with that ADS-B OUT device, and produce engineering data that this system meets a Source Integrity Level (SIL) that is sufficient. The GPS and ADS-B transmitter are not allowed to exist and be tested independently.
So basically, for Dynon to "release" it to the world, we'd need to provide test data and installation instructions for it to be legal, for every transponder and UAT on the market. That's just not something we currently see a strong enough business case for. It's why we only support our GPS with our transponder because that's the only combination we can control well enough to make a statement of compliance. We'd even need to control for firmware revisions on the ADS-B OUT devices as this can easily change compliance and compatibility.
It is possible for someone that isn't Dynon or the Transponder manufacturer to do this if they want to, so you could actually buy a SV-GPS-2020 and hook it to your transponder and test it yourself, but then you'd be the one making a statement of compliance to 91.227, not Dynon or the ADS-B OUT manufacturer. You'd probably need to redo this anytime any software changed in the GPS or ADS-B OUT transmitter as well.
From the FAA guidance on ADS-B in experimentals. Note that it doesn't talk about GPS independently, it's always the system as a whole, and that it requires the manufacturer to provide installation instructions that create a repeatable compliant system:
Quote:
I operate an amateur built experimental aircraft. What should I install?
The ADS-B Out equipment installed in an aircraft must meet the performance requirements of the ADS-B TSOs. A TSO authorization, issued in accordance with 14 CFR 21 subpart O, is not required. However, ADS-B Out systems and equipment installed or used in type-certificated aircraft must have a design approval issued under 14 CFR 21 (or must be installed by field approval, if appropriate).
The performance requirements include those requirements referenced in section 3 of the applicable TSO (UAT or 1090ES), including considerations for design assurance and environmental qualification. Deviations to the requirements can be approved for equipment which does obtain a TSO authorization, as identified in 14 CFR 91.227.
For experimental category aircraft there is no FAA approval required for the ADS-B Out system installation. Owners of these aircraft may elect to install equipment authorized under a TSO, in accordance with the installation instructions provided by the manufacturer. Alternatively, owners of these aircraft may elect to purchase uncertified equipment. For uncertified equipment, the owner should obtain a statement of compliance from the supplier, along with installation instructions, that identifies that the ADS-B equipment complies with section 3 requirements of the applicable TSO and that, when installed in accordance with the installation instructions, complies with the aircraft requirements of 14 CFR 91.227. The FAA expects manufacturers to perform appropriate engineering efforts to ensure the equipment complies with all requirements of Section 3 of the TSO before issuing their statement of compliance, and expects installers to consider the guidance in the current version of AC 20-165B when performing the installation.
Owners of experimental aircraft should retain the statement of compliance from the equipment supplier in the aircraft records to assist in resolving in-service issues, should they arise. The FAA monitors compliance to the ADS-B Out requirements, and if the equipment, or an installation, is determined to be noncompliant the operator may not be able to enter the airspace designated in 14 CFR 91.225 until the equipment or installation is brought into compliance.
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Last edited by dynonsupport : 01-31-2017 at 06:44 PM.
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01-31-2017, 06:33 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Enon Valley
Posts: 189
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GRT ADSB GPS
Grand rapids just released their adsb gps for about $500.
__________________
Dewey Clawson
Super Sabre Society
2012 RV10; 1993 RV6A; 1947 Cessna 140, in progress
2019 dues exempt but paid anyhow
F100, A7D, A10, F16,
Fokker, Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas
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01-31-2017, 06:51 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deweyclawson
Grand rapids just released their adsb gps for about $500.
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http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=146171
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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01-31-2017, 07:01 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 534
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DWS - think about this as a low cost option
It looks like you have a similar setup to my panel. I've got two 430s (non-WAAS) and a 330 transponder (non-ES). Sunday I learned GRT is now selling their Fly Safe 2020 Compliant GPS for $500 that provides compliant gps information to their EFIS and other systems. While it's non-certified, they say it meets or exceeds FAR 91.227, TSO C166b, TSO C154c standards.
I asked in another thread whether this could feed gps data to my 330. I was told it would and if I upgrade my 330 to a 330-ES then I would meet ads-b out requirements for experimental category aircraft. While this setup is not allowed for certicated aircraft it is legal in experimental. Now if I add FlightBox ads-b in data to my EFIS (which is doable following GRT instructions) I should have both ads-b "in and out" on my EFIS and iPad. The good thing here is that Garmin ads-b out is 1090 MHz which allows you flight above 18,000'.
I estimate the equipment cost at $500 for the Fly Safe GPS and around $1,300 for the 330 upgrade. This is a cheaper and I think easier approach than the NavWorx approach from an installation standpoint and I know GRT is a good small company that supports its client base. If I decide later to go a different direction then selling the upgraded Garmin 330 should recover most of my upgrade cost. NavWorx's reputation has suffered these last few months and like you I'm looking for a good, inexpensive option.
__________________
Jim Harris, ATP, T38, EC/KC-135A/E/R, 2008 RV7A, 2nd owner, N523RM (2015)
Superior XPIO-360, Hartzel CS prop, Aerotronics panel with Dual GRT Horizon WS, EIS, Garmin 340, 335 w/WAAS gps, Dual 430s (non-WAAS), TruTrak 385 A/P with auto-level, Electric trim, Tosten 6 button Military Grips, FlightBox wired to WS, Dynon D10A w/battery backup, 406 MHz ELT. Custom Interior, New TS Flightline hoses, Great POH!
Retired - Living the dream - going broke!
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01-31-2017, 07:10 PM
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been here awhile
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
To use a GPS as your ADS-B OUT position source, you must test it with that ADS-B OUT device, and produce engineering data that this system meets a Source Integrity Level (SIL) that is sufficient. The GPS and ADS-B transmitter are not allowed to exist and be tested independently.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankerpilot75
...GRT is now selling their Fly Safe 2020 Compliant GPS for $500 that provides compliant gps information to their EFIS and other systems. While it's non-certified, they say it meets or exceeds FAR 91.227, TSO C166b, TSO C154c standards.
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It will be interesting to see if the FAA rules we can have a compliant "experimental" system by mixing and matching independently tested GPS receivers and transponders. Here we have two reputable vendors apparently holding different opinions on this issue....if I understand their positions correctly.
Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 01-31-2017 at 07:14 PM.
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