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  #61  
Old 01-20-2017, 11:16 AM
alpinelakespilot2000 alpinelakespilot2000 is offline
 
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This practice seems a lot like a private individual using public land (for grazing, mining, etc.) for free (or at below market rates) and then charging other private individuals to use that same public land.

Legal? Obviously. Entreprenuerial? You bet! An equitable use of a public resource? Not so much. And there is a difference between an airline reserving large blocks of numbers (for a legitimate purpose) and someone else doing it just to make money by selling the numbers to others.

Just my $.02.
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Last edited by alpinelakespilot2000 : 01-20-2017 at 11:25 AM.
  #62  
Old 01-20-2017, 11:22 AM
rightrudder rightrudder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FasGlas View Post
The simple game plan would for everyone to stop buying these reserved numbers. Get any number, use vinyl lettering, wait for him to go out of biz and get the number when it's released again. Shouldn't take too long if no one's buying them anymore. Supply and demand.
I like the way you think.
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  #63  
Old 01-20-2017, 11:23 AM
Jordan1976 Jordan1976 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowJacket RV9 View Post
And for those who suggest just buying them ALL up, and holding them hostage, my math indicates over 67 million possible N-numbers (more if we start using more letters). Let's assume (very) generously that 17 million are taken already. That's 50 million numbers at $10 a pop, so half a billion dollars to buy them all up.
This is why people don't fully understand why aviation is so expensive.

There are 268,000 aircraft registered in the USA (all aircraft, including airliners). Not 17 million.

To contrast this, the world makes 90M cars a year. So we make as many cars in 1 day as there are airplanes in the USA. Aviation costs so much because the volume is effective zero.

Even crazier math- we make about 6,000 new planes a year, worldwide. That's how many cars we make in 30 minutes.

There are also only 915,000 N-Numbers. So you can reserve every single available one for about $6.5M per year. Just a hair more than buying a single Cessna Denali or Pilatus PC-12:

http://www.skytamer.com/5.4.htm

Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
  #64  
Old 01-20-2017, 11:31 AM
Jordan1976 Jordan1976 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gyoung View Post
Manufacturers have been reserving large blocks of N-numbers since at least the 1940's.
FAR 47.15(4)(c):

Quote:
(c) An aircraft manufacturer may apply to the Registry for enough U.S. registration numbers to supply estimated production for the next 18 months. There is no charge for this allocation of numbers.
So yes, they get blocks, but they are limited in how many they can get, and they don't get to pick and choose the numbers they get. They will be random. The issue at discussion here is the ability to pick an unlimited number of specific numbers and hold them indefinitely.
  #65  
Old 01-20-2017, 11:51 AM
vgb vgb is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: northern Cal
Posts: 111
Default N Numbers

This is what the FAA said

This issue has been reviewed by our legal department and a determination has been made that this is not a matter that we can take action on. As of now, any entity may reserve an N-Number in their name for a one year period, and once the number is reserved there is no regulations dictating how they must use their reserved number.

Have a good day,
JC
  #66  
Old 01-20-2017, 12:13 PM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL KCLW
Posts: 1,281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan1976 View Post
This is why people don't fully understand why aviation is so expensive.

There are 268,000 aircraft registered in the USA (all aircraft, including airliners). Not 17 million.

To contrast this, the world makes 90M cars a year. So we make as many cars in 1 day as there are airplanes in the USA. Aviation costs so much because the volume is effective zero.

Even crazier math- we make about 6,000 new planes a year, worldwide. That's how many cars we make in 30 minutes.

There are also only 915,000 N-Numbers. So you can reserve every single available one for about $6.5M per year. Just a hair more than buying a single Cessna Denali or Pilatus PC-12:

http://www.skytamer.com/5.4.htm

Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
And it would only work if one person had a monopoly on ALL the numbers and could name their price. In reality competition would drive down costs so that it would really only make sense to buy and sell the more in demand #s. And that's what is happening. Do you rearly think if your idea would work somebody wouldn't be doing it yet, especially for a mere 2.5 million per year?
Of course even then you could make it 36 times more expensive with the addition of one character.

7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution. Outlawing this guy would not make your preferred n number available to you. It would make it available to EVERYBODY who wanted it, and you'd still have to compete with them.
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Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 01-20-2017 at 12:17 PM.
  #67  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:21 PM
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rolivi rolivi is offline
 
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Location: Fort Worth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowJacket RV9 View Post
7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution.
Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.
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  #68  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:34 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolivi View Post
Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.
The actual problem will come when the ten million US citizens (about 4% of the total) who genuinely fear and hate general aviation realize that if they band together and each put in a dollar, they can prevent any and all new registrations.
I presume that then the FAA would do something.
  #69  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:39 PM
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GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
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Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan1976 View Post
Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
Then the FAA adds one letter to the registration process (N123ABC) and you go from about 1M combinations to about 35M that have to be reserved. Your costs skyrocketed while your ROI stayed the same. IMHO not a good business plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolivi View Post
Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.
Exactly

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  #70  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:41 PM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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Location: St. Paul, MN.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Bob you will care when you have to pay this guy $1500 just to get an N-number, any N-number, to register the RV-12 you just started.
Maybe. Lots of doom and gloom in the future. I'll worry about it in the future.

Hey, do you guys think I should prime these parts on the new RV-12 kit or should I just leave them the way they are?
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