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03-24-2007, 07:44 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Upper ny
Posts: 78
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Back to question stainless fittings &fuel line
The question is about everything else. I would love to know how to buy stainless fittings, fuel line, tools, valves, and hardware for a fire resistant crash resistant fuel system. I figure it's utterly worth the extra pound for safety. I've had no luck finding stainless steel based hardware, but someone must make it. thank you
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03-24-2007, 08:05 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,147
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I buy all my stainless fittings (and some line, 1/8", 1/4", and 3/8") from a high-pressure air systems dealer in Dallas, at August Industries, 972-245-7000. The guys name is Porter Stiles, top notch guy, knows high pressure inside and out. He handles the tubing and all-stainless fittings for the ends.
There are other places to get the same stuff, but they will only sell in much larger quantities than builders like most of us would be interested in. I usually buy the tubing in 1000+ feet orders for my stuff, and I use a lot of carbon-steel fittings on the end (for air), but you'll want to get true stainless fittings for fuel use.
The point was made about vibration - it should indeed be noted that this tubing will NOT last if coupled directly between the frame and the motor - you MUST have some piece of flexline somewhere, even if it's only 6 inches long, to take the strain relief. I would suggest running two pieces of stainless, one on the motor itself, one on the firewall, and connecting them with a flexline as close to the crankshaft centerline as possible (behind the engine) to minimize lateral movement. Directly on the shaft centerline you'll be seeing mainly torquing movement, not lateral displacement.
The only exception would be the 1/8" OD tubing - it is designed to be very flexible and will take a great deal of vibration. The small bore makes it ideal for pressure indicator lines where a blown gauge won't dump all your fluid immediately. Many shops refer to this size tubing as "gauge tubing".
__________________
Greg Niehues - SEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2020 dues paid 
N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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03-24-2007, 08:37 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: El Paso, Texas
Posts: 105
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I plan to use 316SS 3000 psi Swagelok, Full Port Stainless on my fuel system.
Can withstand fires in a Refinery, should hold up to a severe enviroment under the cowling. The Swagelok connections do not work harden like flared Al and the weight delta is small for the piece of mind it will bring me. I estimate an extra 2 ~ 3 lbs over Al for the fuel system.
I think its downright crazy to have copper under the cowling or anywhere transporting combustibles.
I will stick with the Al inside the fuel tanks. Stainless inside the Fues and under the cowling where required over Stainless braided (Fire Retardant wrap)/
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TGudz
EP, TX
RV7
Wire/Elec Phase
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03-24-2007, 10:06 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,147
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Swagelok stainless fittings, while not cheap, are the absolute best, no doubt. I use them in locations where it will be difficult or impossible to gain access to the joint again, while easy-access locations get the cheaper carbon steel.
__________________
Greg Niehues - SEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2020 dues paid 
N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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03-25-2007, 10:32 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 136
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Fire Detection??
I sounds like part of the problem is detecting a fire in the engine compartment fast enough to turn the fuel off and limit the fire to only the available fuel. I suspect with the fuel flow stopped the fire would quickly consume what fuel is available , maybe not putting out the fire but limiting the speed with which it can move to the cockpit. With that said I am looking at temp sensors (switches) which would close or open when the temp in the engine compartment rises above a certain temp, say 350 ? 450 F . (would have to check to see what the normal temp is. These sensors would then set off a loud horn and bright light on the panel to tell the pilot to take action. Possibly connect the mag switch to shut down the engine pump as well as the boost pump. (An over ride switch would let the pilot keep things running if need be)??? Its an idea that would not take much to install and would not cost a lot????? What do you think????
__________________
John Collins
South Central PA
RV6A Phase II
Last edited by collinsj57@adelphia.net : 03-25-2007 at 10:38 AM.
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03-25-2007, 11:36 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Green Bay, WI (GRB)
Posts: 479
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Engine Fire Detection System
I had a Twin Cessna that had a fire detection system installed, it had a loop of sensing wire that was near to the cowl exhaust supported by several Adel clamps. The normal flow of cooling air would pass by the sensing loop, not sure what the activation temperature was but must have been in the 500-degree area.
From the 1982 Cessna T303 POH
?A fire detection system for each engine is installed in the airplane. The system consists of a temperature sensing loop in each engine compartment, two red warning lights labeled L. ENG. FIRE and R. ENG. FIRE on the annunciator panel, an audible warning tone, and the associated wiring and control boxes. ?
Just thoughts, many of the new engine monitors have extra positions to monitor temperatures. Example, turbine inlet temperature, what if a extra position was used to monitor this temp, a thermocouple could be placed in the area of the cowl exhaust and the monitor set to alarm on out of norm temps. This system could be installed for a very low cost and provide valuable protection from this threat.
Don
RV7
Finish Kit
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03-29-2007, 06:52 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 98
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by collinsj57@adelphia.net
I sounds like part of the problem is detecting a fire in the engine compartment fast enough to turn the fuel off and limit the fire to only the available fuel. I suspect with the fuel flow stopped the fire would quickly consume what fuel is available , maybe not putting out the fire but limiting the speed with which it can move to the cockpit. With that said I am looking at temp sensors (switches) which would close or open when the temp in the engine compartment rises above a certain temp, say 350 ? 450 F . (would have to check to see what the normal temp is. These sensors would then set off a loud horn and bright light on the panel to tell the pilot to take action. Possibly connect the mag switch to shut down the engine pump as well as the boost pump. (An over ride switch would let the pilot keep things running if need be)??? Its an idea that would not take much to install and would not cost a lot????? What do you think????
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I'm paranoid about fire in my airplane. It's one of the few situations in flying where there are almost no options, especially if it breaks out at a higher altitude. The time to get down and make a safe landing could be too long to survive. As a result I decided to install a firewall temperature sensor. I have a GRT EIS4000 system. One of the great things about this unit is that there are a couple of extra inputs available that you can configure with whatever you want. I called GRT about a sensor that I could use for this purpose and they suggested a FT-1827-02 sensor. I installed this through the firewall near the cowl exit and set the alarm limits at 400F.
In addition to this I bought a safecraft fire extinguisher system from AC Spruce. This is a 4lb bottle that I installed behind the panel and is activated by a "T" handle on the instrument panel. Discharge nozzles are located in the high pressure area above the cylinders, above the lower pressure area behind the aft wall of the baffles and finally down near the carb.
Note that the grizzled airport bums at my home base think I'm nuts to invest the $$$ and weight for this system but I'd rather be nuts than dead!!
Doug
RV6
Warminster PA
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03-30-2007, 07:37 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 136
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A little off subject
Warminster PA ?
Doug
Wheres Warminster PA. I am out of Gettysburg but have not run into alot of RVs around hear?
John
__________________
John Collins
South Central PA
RV6A Phase II
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03-30-2007, 12:27 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 409
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Fire
Vern, My RV-6 was involved in a fire. The fire was different in that it was in a hanger that started burning. My plane was damaged and I'm in the process of fixing it up. As far as the plane your talking about : That plane needs to be tested. You need to make sure the temper on the aluminum was not affected. I had mine tested at the Lawrence Ripack co. here on Long Island next to republic arport. They do testing for the aerospace industry and in fact were testing F-18 bulkheads when I was there. My plane checked out fine but there was no flame only heat on my airframe. My canopy and cowl were melted. By far the worst damage was the smoke. It corroded anything not painted. I have changed every nut and bolt in the plane! All new fabrics and rug. New canopy, cowl, tips and spinner. Please get back to me if you have questions or concerns. I would be glad to help in anyway I can.
rfazio1951@verizon.net
My Plane After The Fire
Getting Fixed Up
__________________
Richard Fazio
LI, NY
N966RV
RV-6 Slider
O-360
FP Wood Prop
Last edited by RFazio : 03-30-2007 at 12:50 PM.
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03-30-2007, 01:03 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,357
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The problem with "roll your own" fire detection and extinguishing systems is how do you know they work? I've flown many aircraft types with engine fire detection systems, all of which would have undergone extensive ground and flight testing in an attempt to have a system that worked properly. And I've had several false fire detection indications on these aircraft types, where the system said there was a fire when there wasn't. I've had at least a half dozen false fire indications, and never had a real one.
I'm also aware of the results of fire extinguishing flight testing, where the fire bottles are fired at various flight conditions, and the extinguisher agent concentrations are measured. It is quite common to have to tweak the design of the extinguishing system to get it to put the agent where it is needed at a high enough concentration to be effective.
To the folks who have fire detection systems - what will you do if it indicates a fire, but there are no other obvious indications of a fire? It is good to think this through while on the ground, so there is no hesitation in the air.
If you have a fire extinguisher - if the fire detection system says fire, and there are no other indications, will you shut down the engine and activate the extinguisher? Does it make a difference what sort of terrain you are over?
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