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12-16-2016, 02:04 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Fair Oaks,CA
Posts: 58
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How to design avionics to last for life of airframe?
Recent discussions about EFIS hardware compatibility, software updates and feature requests, etc. now have me wondering about what is considered "best practice" for designing a glass panel. The RV-14 airframe could easily last over 30 years with proper maintenance (yes I've primed EVERYTHING in the airframe). iPhones and iPads don't last much beyond 4-5 years. How long will a Dynon or G3x system last? I would have to think any glass I put into a panel today would be lucky to last 5 years before replacement is required. Is there anyway to make that replacement less painful? Is there a wiring scheme that should be used that would be plug comparable with future replacements? Should I just go with steam gauges? What commitment do Dynon and Garmin have to future support? Are there standards that will be supported for the next 30 years like CAN bus or ARINC? Can any manufacturers speak to what their plans are for 30 year life span support?
Engines are life rated for some number of hours of operation and we all set aside funds for engine rebuild/replace as an ongoing expense. Maybe avionics should have a similar rating so we can at least understand the costs involved.
This stuff is a significant portion of the cost of the airplane and it would be nice to mitigate future expenses if possible. Any ideas?
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12-16-2016, 02:20 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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The bigger issue is what your needs are. If your needs are technology-intensive, then you'll need to replace things relatively soon. If they aren't, the useful life will be increased. Barring outright failures and changes in FAA requirements, the avionics should last for quite a while.
I have an unprimed certified aircraft that's over 60 years old and is doing nicely. Its ancient nav-com is working well, as is its old transponder. But due to ADS-B rules, the transponder is due for a change. The plane is on its second engine.
So with a bit of luck your avionics will be fine for a long time. If you install analog instrumentation, that might last as long as the airframe.
Dave
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12-16-2016, 02:21 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,408
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I hope you are wrong on the five years. My Super Cub's D100 and D120 are on their eleventh year and I'm hoping for many more out of them. I hope my Skyviews in my RV-14A do the same.
__________________
Thanks Ron
RV-10 SOLD
RV-14 Flying
AirCam flying
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12-16-2016, 02:29 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,351
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I suspect many of them would last as long as your A/C but often we replace them to take advantage of the faster and newer technology. If you are OK with the older HW, then much concern unless the company goes out of business like Blue Mountain did years ago. As far as replacing them goes, there are two challenges to this, one is the physical aspect of the new equipment and how much work will it be to fit the new/bigger EIFS and then the wiring. For the wiring, I have chosen to go with the hub system (Approach fast stack) and frankly can not imagine any other way. It has been as cost effective as hard wire and has made any changes to the avionics a breeze when it comes to wiring. In the last 7 years since flying I have added two additions to my avionics and that has been just a plug and play. So when it comes to replacing my EIFS, I will be much more concern about the physical aspect of the new unit.
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Mehrdad
N825SM RV7A - IO360M1B - SOLD
N825MS RV14A - IO390 - Flying
Dues paid
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12-16-2016, 03:34 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
Posts: 2,393
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30 years
30 years??? My first homebuilt is still going strong at age 52. Spartan Executive's built around 1940 better than new if you want an all metal example. Twin Beech's, DC3's etc.
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12-16-2016, 03:42 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 620
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There are an awful lot of Garmin 430s going strong and still supported by the manufacturer, and it has been around a lot longer than 5 years. Hopefully, the current technology will continue to be supported for a long time, too. Choose your manufacturer wisely - if that is possible . . .
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12-17-2016, 08:29 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Big Sandy, WY
Posts: 2,567
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It helps to have a proper mindset. Don't build your airframe around your avionics. Build an airframe that can pretty much stand on it's own and add avionics ON TOP of everything. It's just a trick that leads you all the way through. Also, not a fan of hubs. These are simple airplanes that happen to have nice computers. But, like everything digital, it's out of date before you get it installed.
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Actual repeat offender.
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12-17-2016, 09:12 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Taylorsville, Ga
Posts: 798
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During times of changing regulations, changing technology and new products being introduced, not sure you want to design avionics to outlast or out live the airframe. I've also witnessed the avionics being outdated by the time you' re ready to install. I think the best method would be to build flexible and modular. The older you get the harder it is to work under the panel, take my word for it. Build it (panel) with future "change out" in mind. After all, that's what homebuilders like to do.
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DRRhodes
2020 VAF Supporter
RV9 N908DR
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12-17-2016, 09:25 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LSGY
Posts: 3,198
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plan for change
Avionics technology is now on the "Moore's Law" price/performance/feature curve, which is of course excellent for us. This means that every 2 years or so something doubly amazing will be released.
This is why most manufacturers I have spoken to said to wait as long as possible before buying the avionics, and build the panel area for easy access and upgrades/replacement. There don't seem to be any real "standards" beyond the normal good wiring practices you see in various posts on this site and on aeroelectric.com.
What I was hoping to see is a very high brightness tablet, and a standard set of sensor aggregators. Then I could just put the latest tablet into the panel. This does not look like it's going to happen, as I guess the tablet manufacturers don't really care too much about screen brightness, and my ipads don't seem to want to stay lit on a hot day or when they are exposed to direct sunshine for a while.
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12-17-2016, 09:45 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
Posts: 2,596
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Good topic to explore
I talk to a lot of builders about panels. Typically they walk up to the plane and ask "who built your panel?". After I tell them I did and get past the "I don't believe you" phase, we usually have a worthwhile conversation.
Now relating this the thread topic, I offer some foundation basics as a start:
- Assume you will modify your panel. The super wham-a-dyne carbon fiber, silk screened, does everything but makes your espresso panel that you labored with the avionics shop to get just right will scream to be modified once you start flying. My RV-8A went through five panel modifications, and one full panel rebuild to the SkyView system over a 13 year period. The RV-10 panel was replaced at the 18 month point. Only Comm #2 was changed, but much of the avionic placement was modified. I never use anything other than the stock Van's panel blank so panel redo was little more than a new blank, cutting holes and paint.
- To the earlier posts, I believe you can count on a decade or more of service from some key elements (e.g. the SkyView system, a GTN-650 and any steam gauges you may have). This means that the majority of you wiring (like the SkyView network) will support equipment upgrades.
- I offer that the dust has not yet settled on ADS-B compliance. I'd guess that some of the products from the plethora of options may not make it for the long haul. Here integrated EFIS solutions appear to have the advantage.
So what? Consider:
- Build your own panel. Have your avionics shop of choice build your harness for your certified GPS navigator buy you do the rest. Systems like the SkyView are so well documented anyone can do it.
- Stay with the stock Van's panel blank. If you must have the super wham-a-dyne carbon panel, buy two with one blank so you have it when you want to make a mod.
- There are so many options for labeling and such that you should assume the labels will be changed. Pick a process that supports this.
- Consider your first year of flying and build a panel to support. That way you have some time in the saddle to figure out what you really want, and another year to save up a few bucks to pay for it. If you do this, have some base concept in mind, so that what you buy for the first year will be used in the follow on panel. Example; one 10" SkyView with comm, transponder and autopilot and a steam gauge AirSpeed. The second SkyView and GTN-650 later.
Carl
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