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12-02-2016, 09:55 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH
Such proposals remind me of a Barry Goldwater quote, a short snip of which stated "My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them."
There is no virtue in trying to segregate speech by forum area. It's just an additional set of rules for little purpose. And anyway, it doesn't work. Folks will post as they please.
Let there be free exchange. When a builder proposes a modification to his own airplane, is he not asking for peer review? When someone proposes modification to another builder's airplane, isn't it best if that proposal is reviewed by peers? In either case, how can it be better if fewer readers see the discussion, or respond?
VAF is open to all, largely civil, and full of really smart people who are expert in their field. Let's not limit their contributions with fuzzy rules for special forums.
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I fully agree.
Why would anyone proposing a modification (particularly if it is a bit extreme) not be open to hearing reasons it is a bad idea.
Rabbit trail..... The forums are full of threads that were started and propagated by people that obviously were severely lacking in the technical knowledge on the subject. To the extent that it could have easily gotten someone hurt (or worse). Others pointing out some of the details that obviously hadn't even been considered has been a very good thing
When these forums become a venue where only positive / ego boosting responses are expected (part of the everyone gets a trophy mentality?), it will have become a very useless and dangerous place.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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12-02-2016, 10:41 AM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chkaharyer99
I'm novice, no doubt. I got my ticket in June 2014. Bought an RV-8 in February 2015. Never build a plane. I have about 260 hours total time now.
I read most of the "Advanced" stuff written here and must admit it sometimes stops me from moving forward on doing stuff I would like to accomplish. Most notably adding EI.
I often hold back my questions for the same reason many others do.
Many of you "Advanced" folks who post are very well mannered and tolerate us "Novice" to intermediate folks very well. Most notably are the vendors and advertisers. Folks from AFS, Garmin, Dynon, Stein, Ross and Bill L... Others include Gary Sobeck, DanH and Toolbuilder... Folks like these really go the extra mile to help guide you through the process and educate. They provided detailed posts with graphics or photos and videos. They are top notch. I have tremendous respect for all of you who contribute to make me, us, more informed.
I'll go back to my quite place again and listen. Someday I hope to be among the "Advanced". But first I will strive towards being the best "Novice" I can so someday I can move up to the "Intermediate" group.
Thanks everyone for all the great advise of the years.
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This is well said and something to strive for. ALL of us were novices at one time and had to learn from experience and wisdom of others. Our goal now is to pass that knowledge along, along with an open mindedness to accept new forays. That's what progress is all about. Luckily in our area of interest (amateur-built aviation) experimentation is allowed and encouraged.
Vic
__________________
 Vic Syracuse
Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
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12-02-2016, 12:17 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
I fully agree.
Rabbit trail..... The forums are full of threads that were started and propagated by people that obviously were severely lacking in the technical knowledge on the subject. To the extent that it could have easily gotten someone hurt (or worse). Others pointing out some of the details that obviously hadn't even been considered has been a very good thing
When these forums become a venue where only positive / ego boosting responses are expected (part of the everyone gets a trophy mentality?), it will have become a very useless and dangerous place.
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Great points Scott. We all must take responsibility for this. Good intending folks armed with a little knowledge, or worse long standing opinion, can be dangerous. I also know folks who no longer visit here for this exact reason.
I have been on both sides, contributor to misinformation, and following down a path guided by misinformation from some of the "experts" here. Nobody is exempt.
Trust and Verify !
However, I sympathize with Michael. Not sure what the best approach is, if any. The forum works pretty darn well and is absolutely the best resource, but it is a public forum.
Everyone is good at something. It just might not be what they are doing.
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
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12-02-2016, 01:26 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Clarion, Pennsylvania
Posts: 550
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Interesting and good points all around. Perhaps we should have a forum specifically for posting "flight test data". I think many of us would agree that all too often the discussions regarding modifications are lacking good data. A forum aimed at organizing flight test data would consolidate the information in one location, encourage the collection of high quality performance data, and encourage a facts-based discussion of what works and what doesn't work.
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-Andy Turner
RV-10 N784JC
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12-02-2016, 01:36 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aturner
Interesting and good points all around. Perhaps we should have a forum specifically for posting "flight test data". I think many of us would agree that all too often the discussions regarding modifications are lacking good data. A forum aimed at organizing flight test data would consolidate the information in one location, encourage the collection of high quality performance data, and encourage a facts-based discussion of what works and what doesn't work.
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Very good idea. The only problem is that many of us, most of us, do not know how to conduct a proper test. I see a lot of dubious information posted that is missing a lot of important factors. I would bet there are very few posters here that could repeat tests even in the same conditions and achieve the same results time and again.
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
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12-03-2016, 09:08 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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I thought the reason we didn't have such a forum was that it could be construed as an *encouragement* to make such mods. And in the inevitable case where someone takes it too far and dies trying it, Doug's site (and hence Doug) becomes a target in a lawsuit.
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Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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12-03-2016, 09:20 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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On the other hand, such a discussion will provide a opportunity for peer review and a good chance of heading off a disaster before it gets started.
A double edged sword, to be sure.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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12-03-2016, 09:38 AM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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I totally get where you're coming from Mike, yet I am afraid that I don't know how a separate forum for what you want would work. Since every member has access to all the forums, the folks that don't like experimenting and mods can still go bash those who do, just in a different "file cabinet". You can see this in the "Alternative Engine" section of VAF, where someone has an honest question about a Subbie or Mazda, and the discussion devolves into bashing over alt engines. We've never figured how to stop that.
The only answer would be a moderator who gets rid of posts that aren't in the spirit of experimentation, and that's a judgement call, and then everyone gets accused of censorship.
As you said - a double edged sword (in a different context). If we want freedom of expression, we have to be willign to put up with critics - who also have freedom of expression.
If you figure out how to solve that small issue, let EVERYONE know! 
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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12-03-2016, 11:23 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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I'd rather rely on individuals learning to make their own judgements from what they read and what the comments are about what they've read. From what I can tell, in general we don't have a problem.
In general this is a very sensibly-moderated forum.
Dave
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12-04-2016, 07:33 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Paul and Dave, agree that individual personal responsibility is the best solution. And I also aknowledge a certain amount of "bashing" is going to take place on a forum, and personally, I expect and appreciate the occasional "tune up" when I'm wrong (even if the delivery is harsh). Such exchanges sting the ego a bit, but my goal is to be smarter tomorrow than I was today.
So if the consensus is to "let it ride", I'm ok with that. However, I will bookmark this thread as a reminder when someone uses the "...consider the inexperienced reader..." statement as a silver bullet to end it. I have seen this admonition to "consider the inexperienced..." many times in this forum and have been on the recieving end of it more than once myself. Its usually found in any thread that discusses AN fittings, firesleeve, hose vs. hardline, pattern entry, radio use, self taught acro, approach speeds, "testing the envelope", transition training vs. "going for it", etc. Such an admonition is the reason I added the "Warning" in my signature line.
I'm looking forward to an environment of openness and education.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Last edited by Toobuilder : 12-04-2016 at 08:29 AM.
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