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11-18-2016, 02:19 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Wharton, TX
Posts: 86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaib
I agree, and will tell anyone that asks, that the door design is one of the very, very, few design weaknesses on the airplane.
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Sounds like there is unanimity on this statement.
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11-18-2016, 02:55 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avi8tor857
I really want to build a 10 but the door design is a risk I can't accept so I haven't ordered the kit yet. There are things you can't change and you protect yourself with a check list, there are things you can redesign to make your check list shorter reducing your workload.
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Mitigating risk can be done in many different ways......
Sometimes it is good to do it in more than one way.
Proper use of a check list is a very good place to start. That, coupled with a physical check of both doors and the door latched indicator system that is standard in the kit should catch a mistake.
Since it is true that none of us are perfect, when there are easy to implement secondary checks it is a good idea to use them.......
As already mentioned in an earlier post, the modern EFIS systems a lot of builders choose now a days are capably of sensing an unsecured door and warn visually and aurally warning you when the throttle is advanced for take off. This would be way # 2.
How many different ways are needed?
Sure, the doors could be made to open differently. But that in itself would not guaranty no more door related RV-10 accidents.
The Cirrus has doors that open more fwd. They tend to stay mostly closed if unlatched in flight. There is a high profile accident that occurred near KDVT years ago all because of an unlatch door. There is security camera video of the airplane just before impact that clearly shows the door unlatched.
The investigation determined probably cause as being the same as what it likely will for this RV-10 accident.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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11-18-2016, 03:21 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Flowery Branch
Posts: 9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
Mitigating risk can be done in many different ways......
Sometimes it is good to do it in more than one way.
Proper use of a check list is a very good place to start. That, coupled with a physical check of both doors and the door latched indicator system that is standard in the kit should catch a mistake.
Since it is true that none of us are perfect, when there are easy to implement secondary checks it is a good idea to use them.......
As already mentioned in an earlier post, the modern EFIS systems a lot of builders choose now a days are capably of sensing an unsecured door and warn visually and aurally warning you when the throttle is advanced for take off. This would be way # 2.
How many different ways are needed?
Sure, the doors could be made to open differently. But that in itself would not guaranty no more door related RV-10 accidents.
The Cirrus has doors that open more fwd. They tend to stay mostly closed if unlatched in flight. There is a high profile accident that occurred near KDVT years ago all because of an unlatch door. There is security camera video of the airplane just before impact that clearly shows the door unlatched.
The investigation determined probably cause as being the same as what it likely will for this RV-10 accident.
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Yes agree completely, the checklist is the only way to prevent the door from coming open. However except for the distraction a door opening event shouldn't be a safety concern.
Approaching my concern from a different direction if you need to open it because of smoke in flight, how worried would you be that it could hit someone on the ground? How would that effect our hobby if it did?
Does anyone know which latch was on the door, the NTSB report was obviously written by someone with above average knowledge on the design based on the detail and length.
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11-18-2016, 04:34 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avi8tor857
Yes agree completely, the checklist is the only way to prevent the door from coming open.
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Actually, it is not......
I listed two ways to help mitigate an open door.
If the warning system is installed and coupled to an EFIS system, even if a pilot missed "confirm both doors closed and latched" at three different places in their check list(s), as they advanced the throttle for take-off, they would begin getting a a visual and audio warning ( "check door latch").
Of all of the door opening incidents I am aware of, only one did any damage to the airplane (and we don't know many if any details of that incident... I.E. if it was at high speed, etc.).
All of the rest should have done nothing other than startle the pilot and passengers.
In fact, one bold RV-10 pilot flew 200 miles back to home base rather than land after losing a passenger door after take-off.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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11-18-2016, 04:42 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL KCLW
Posts: 1,281
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One of the best classes I have taken as a firefighter was on "physiological response to stress". The takeaway was that "you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training". Unless you have practiced responding to a situation repeatedly, you will very likely get it wrong under severe stress. In these situations, you lose all fine motor skills (which could make it hard to secure a door), get narrowed vision, and have almost no critical thinking skills. There is simply no way to assure the proper response until you've ingrained it in your subconscious mind. As they say, don't train until you get it right, train until you can't get it wrong.
I have learned to temper judgement of actions taken by people under severe stress.
Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
RV-9A - Done(ish) 4/5/16! Flying 4/7/16
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11-18-2016, 04:54 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Wharton, TX
Posts: 86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowJacket RV9
One of the best classes I have taken as a firefighter was on "physiological response to stress". The takeaway was that "you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training". Unless you have practiced responding to a situation repeatedly, you will very likely get it wrong under severe stress. In these situations, you lose all fine motor skills (which could make it hard to secure a door), get narrowed vision, and have almost no critical thinking skills. There is simply no way to assure the proper response until you've ingrained it in your subconscious mind. As they say, don't train until you get it right, train until you can't get it wrong.
I have learned to temper judgement of actions taken by people under severe stress.
Chris
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One of the best posts I've seen on any message board on any subject. Thank you.
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11-18-2016, 09:27 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Fort Worth area
Posts: 97
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Very informative thread
It saddens me to think it sometimes takes a tragedy like this to remind us how easily each of us could be brought down by an unexpected event that we would never anticipate nor train for. Rarely do inflight malfunctions follow a precise pattern that can be immediately resolved with a handy step-by-step written checklist that is routinely practiced. In my 50+ years of aviation I am fortunate to have survived, not necessarily by any suburb flying skills but by dedication to intense training programs and learning from various mishaps of others and myself. Reading all the posts the one overriding message says it all: No matter what action is required - fly the airplane first. The military acronym was FTFA. Indulge me with one related war story. I'll try to keep it brief.
A fairly new left seat KC-135A Captain taking off hot and heavy at a tropical military deployment base in the late 1960s. Immediately after rotation at about 170 knots a very loud bang, a smell of burning rubber, and an amber light on the panel illuminated which is one I hoped to never see inflight. It indicated when either the lower crew entry hatch or the cargo door were unlatched. From the cockpit the boom operator reported the crew entry hatch was secure. Those few seconds of hauling that overloaded Jurassic Jet off the meager remaining runway and cleaning it up while waiting for the cargo door to rip off and take some tail surfaces with it seemed like an eternity. That is called "pucker time".
I'll skip the technical details and obviously the aircraft remained intact to complete that mission because due to a series of circumstances one critical checklist item was inadvertently omitted by one of my crewmen. I took the heat from the commander but it taught me a valuable lesson that has stayed with me throughout my flying career. NEVER stop flying the airplane and checklists are sacred.
__________________
RV-8 N88GK Sold
RV-9A Slider, N188GK Project, now flying, O-320-B1A, Catto 3 Blade NLE, G3X Touch System
Restored Taylorcraft BC12-65
Exempt but proud contributor
Jerry Kinman, VAF 170
Keller, TX (T67)
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11-19-2016, 09:19 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL KCLW
Posts: 1,281
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It would be interesting to compare statistics on loss of control accidents on military or even ATP pilots vs the rest of us. I'd be willing to bet that in the military you gained some experience flying under stress, which helped you keep your calm when it hit the fan.
I think in GA we do a horrible job of training pilots for stressful situations. Some instructors will pop ooen a door or window on takeoff, which is great, but probably not going far enough. I don't have the answer, but I know that your local Delta pilot sits in a simulator every year for many, very stressful hours, practicing responding to the worst possible situations. Having his job on the line probably adds a good bit of stress, which is a good thing.
I think I'm a good pilot, and I know I'm pretty good under stress if you hand me a choking baby. But kill my engine on takeoff, and even I don't know how I'd REALLY respond. I just haven't been there except with an instructor, at idle, with the field made. We hand our new GA pilots a certificate and then say 'oh, hey, if something bad happens, just fly the plane.". Is that going far enough? I rehearse in my mind, and like to think I'd get right, but I'd be willing to bet we've lost a lot of pilots who thought the same thing.
My immediate plan is to seek aerobatic or unusual attitude training.
Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Kinman
It saddens me to think it sometimes takes a tragedy like this to remind us how easily each of us could be brought down by an unexpected event that we would never anticipate nor train for. Rarely do inflight malfunctions follow a precise pattern that can be immediately resolved with a handy step-by-step written checklist that is routinely practiced. In my 50+ years of aviation I am fortunate to have survived, not necessarily by any suburb flying skills but by dedication to intense training programs and learning from various mishaps of others and myself. Reading all the posts the one overriding message says it all: No matter what action is required - fly the airplane first. The military acronym was FTFA. Indulge me with one related war story. I'll try to keep it brief.
A fairly new left seat KC-135A Captain taking off hot and heavy at a tropical military deployment base in the late 1960s. Immediately after rotation at about 170 knots a very loud bang, a smell of burning rubber, and an amber light on the panel illuminated which is one I hoped to never see inflight. It indicated when either the lower crew entry hatch or the cargo door were unlatched. From the cockpit the boom operator reported the crew entry hatch was secure. Those few seconds of hauling that overloaded Jurassic Jet off the meager remaining runway and cleaning it up while waiting for the cargo door to rip off and take some tail surfaces with it seemed like an eternity. That is called "pucker time".
I'll skip the technical details and obviously the aircraft remained intact to complete that mission because due to a series of circumstances one critical checklist item was inadvertently omitted by one of my crewmen. I took the heat from the commander but it taught me a valuable lesson that has stayed with me throughout my flying career. NEVER stop flying the airplane and checklists are sacred.
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__________________
Chris Johnson
RV-9A - Done(ish) 4/5/16! Flying 4/7/16
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11-19-2016, 11:02 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Edson, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 483
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Seeking aerobatic training
I like to think of myself as a responsible, well read pilot, but i lived in fear of that plane escaping my control for over 500 hours of private flying.
That is until i strapped a 7ECA on and did some loops, rolls, lots of stalls and recovery. Wow did this make me feel better, I mean the plane keeps flying if YOU keep it flying.
I haven't pursued the endorsement for aerobatics but 5 hours of it made me a more relaxed, less stressed pilot.
Things like this event happen, fortunately not too often. Design can help but in the end it is the pilot and his or her reaction and training that come to play. Again it is unfortunate to discuss these things on such a tragic event but perhaps it will encourage us all to "visualize" and ask ourselve..... What would i do........!
__________________
Dave Cobb
[color="Red"]=VAF=2019 Donation - and a bit extra for great work![/COLOR="blue"]
Empennage RV 7 - Tipper
Wings complete
Dynon installed and running
Fuse closer to completion, Canopy complete
AME reviewed and repaired O-320-Lyc installed
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11-19-2016, 11:11 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowJacket RV9
We hand our new GA pilots a certificate and then say 'oh, hey, if something bad happens, just fly the plane." Is that going far enough?
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Regardless of how much we improve safety, we will never have done enough, there will always be room for more improvement.
But I do think that saying "Fly the airplane" is a great start, but it obviously needs to be taught and reinforced differently than it is right now. Because in simple terms, "Fly the Airplane" is what prevents the loss of control accidents (which we should all know by now is the leading cause of fatalities in experimental aircraft).
The most typical accident scenario that gets labeled loss of control is low altitude stall or stall / spin. So, if any pilot that finds him/her self in a difficult situation "fly's the airplane" in a manor that simply prevents it from stalling before contacting the ground, they have in my mind succeeded. It doesn't matter to me whether they are able to maneuver the airplane into a tiny little field and land with no damage..... in fact it is that type of maneuvering that often leads to the loss of control accident.
In a nut shell.... there is no reason for a fatal accident at a location that has relatively flat open terrain all around. Not that I am advocating people do this, but there are a lot of people that would be alive today if when the engine quit they trimmed for a lowest sink rate glide and then sat on their hands and took what they got.... A minimum speed, in control impact with the ground is probably survivable in most all light aircraft.
It seems we are often afraid to talk about the "save the airplane" syndrome. This isn't meant as speculation towards this particular accident, but I am mentioning it because I think it is a very real factor in many loss of control accidents. It might even be some of the reason for the high loss of control accident rate in experimentals (because of the personal investment in the airplane that the builder/pilot has). In fact it is the prime reason that I am a big proponent of someone else doing the first flight(s) on a new airplane, but that is a subject for another time.
I think this subject should be discussed more openly.
A while back I did something I have never done before.... in an effort to mitigate any tendency I might have towards saving my airplane.....
I purchased hull coverage insurance.
I have now attempted to develop an attitude that if anything bad ever happens while flying it, I mentally relinquish the ownership of the airplane to the insurance company and from that moment on my entire focus will be on the physical protection of myself and anyone else that is with me. If the end result is a successful forced landing with no damage, great. If not, no hard feelings.
You can probably see that I am rather passionate about reducing loss of control accidents, as many others are.
I have immensely enjoyed working in this business, but the news of accidents that result in unnecessary fatalities is hard to take.
History shows that there is a high probability that a few of you reading this in the VAF forums will be the subject of a similar discussion here in the future. A rather morbid statement maybe, but hopefully it will encourage everyone that hangs out here (myself included) to do some deep self evaluation, and try to come up with ideas that will help you primarily focus on "Flying the Airplane", if things ever begin to not go as planned.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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