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  #11  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:00 AM
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ppilotmike ppilotmike is offline
 
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I agree that there are "bold" pilots out there, doing some very risky flying. I also would like to think that we, as an aviation community, could do something to help reduce the fatalities, due to this type of behavior, but communication and education, I believe, is better than shunning/penalizing, based on a list of arbitrary criteria.

Consider the following:

If we embrace the idea of shunning "bad pilot behavior," do we limit it to illegal activities only, or do we include behavior that we, as a community deem to be "risky flying." If so, how can we possibly define that? Some pilots are comfortable with huge crosswinds, short, soft fields, and aggressive aerobatic maneuvers. Some, like myself, currently, are not. The article also suggests that the antics of aerobatic demonstrators might negatively encourage others to want to imitate them, but isn't this what creates the next generation of Bob Hoovers, Patty Wagstaffs and Sean Tuckers? If you had no idea who Sean Tucker was, but saw him practicing his act, and later met him on the ground, would you shun him, because of his "reckless behavior," or worse, make it your life's mission get that type of flying declared illegal? After all, for most pilots, flying like that would indeed qualify as risky, at least for them...

It's a large spectrum between totally free and totally safe, and each is exclusive of the other. I'd rather not let legislators, many of whom don't understand what we do and why we do it, decide how we can fly. I think the only way to reduce risky flying is to confront those people, in a helpful way and talk about it, not to avoid or shun them. There will undoubtedly be hurt feelings and hot tempers during some of those discussions, but in my opinion, that's what we need... To go back to being able to truly say what we think to one another. Even those who pretend not to care, typically do.
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  #12  
Old 11-04-2016, 12:29 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Just thinking out loud here, but where does formation flying fall on this spectrum?

I always regarded formation flying as high risk, completely unnecessary in the civilian world, and rooted in "showing off". And now that I am involved in formation work thanks to a very experienced and professional ex Air Force instuctor, I have seen the light. It is fun, demanding, deadly serious

...and high risk, completely unnecessary, and rooted in showing off.

Yet formation flying has been embraced by this community.

Anybody else see the double standard here?
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2016, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
Anybody else see the double standard here?
I don't disagree with your risk assessment, but I don't think it is a double standard either.

There is a highly structured program of training and standard operating procedures for flying formation in RV's. Anyone involved with formation flying should be using the training and procedures. If they aren't, that deserves some level of action from the community as much as anything else.

There is also highly structured training and standardized procedures related to low level aerobatics. If someone has the desire to show-off with low level aerobatics, then they can get the required training that will allow them to obtain a low level waver and they can show a huge crowd what they can do.... legally, in wavered airspace.
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  #14  
Old 11-04-2016, 01:24 PM
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I agree that a lot of things we (as pilots and owners of E/AB or E-LSA airplanes) do every day, some people think is dangerous and just nuts. I fly an RV-12, and fairly sedately for the most part, but there are people who I am sure think I'm insane to take risks like that. I'm sure the guys in the CAP plane at our field think I'm nuts for flying less than a 2-mile final. ::shrug:: Oh, well.

But still, there is a pretty clear line where we depart from common sense and safe, legal flying. "Thumping" a Cub - or anyone not expecting it - is a good example. Low level impromptu aerobatics without a waiver, anywhere near other planes or people. Formation flying with unwilling or unprepared participants (like unexpectedly "dropping in" on another plane). If you're out in the boonies playing around with a buddy, that's one thing... but don't drag others into it, whether they're on the ground or in the air.

Just my opinion.
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2016, 01:29 PM
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So doing it legally somehow magically changes a "dumb stunt" into a daring act of bravado that thousands will pay money to see? Hmmm. I'm all for safety but it's difficult to reconcile this. For better worse, a large portion of the population wants to see higher risk events and we all make choices about the level of risk we accept in our own activities. These can range from inching above the posted speed limit in our car to jumping the Grand Canyon in our rocket powered motorcycle. Being legal does not necessarily make all such acts safe, nor does being illegal make all such acts unsafe.

Strive to minimize the risk to others so that everyone potentially impacted stays in their comfort zone whether driving your car, flying your RV, or jumping the Grand Canyon.

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  #16  
Old 11-04-2016, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erich weaver View Post
So doing it legally somehow magically changes a "dumb stunt" into a daring act of bravado that thousands will pay money to see? Hmmm. I'm all for safety but it's difficult to reconcile this. For better worse, a large portion of the population wants to see higher risk events and we all make choices about the level of risk we accept in our own activities. These can range from inching above the posted speed limit in our car to jumping the Grand Canyon in our rocket powered motorcycle. Being legal does not necessarily make all such acts safe, nor does being illegal make all such acts unsafe.

Strive to minimize the risk to others so that everyone potentially impacted stays in their comfort zone whether driving your car, flying your RV, or jumping the Grand Canyon.

Erich
Obviously directed at me, and you obviously missed my point.......

No one would dispute that there are lot of different risk levels possible with flying.

Guy # 1 may only fly on cloudless days with no wind within gliding distance of his own private (should be no other traffic) runway in a certificated airplane that he spends huge amounts of money to have professionally maintained.

Guy # 2 may fly single engine cross country over mountains at night.... in an experimental. All perfectly legal, but a definite difference in risk compared to guy # 1.

I don't think either of these "levels of risk" fit the context of the article or the discussion in this thread.

Doing illegal low level aerobatics with an innocent passenger is still way out at the extreme edge on the risk scale compared to even guy # 2.

So the point is that doing it legally puts no one else on the ground or in the air at risk. It is the pilot choosing to accept the risk, but not imposing it onto anyone else. At the same time it would be reducing the "there goes another one of those stupid RV pilots" perceptions because the person would have at least demonstrated that they took it seriously and followed the rules.
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  #17  
Old 11-04-2016, 03:47 PM
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My guess is this thread gets shut down sooner or later.......the line is not straight and there are people with emotions on both sides.
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2016, 03:59 PM
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I felt the article is more about behavior than risk.
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  #19  
Old 11-04-2016, 04:00 PM
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This topic need not get overheated if we limit our discussion to those pilots who are actually in violation of CFRs. I think all of the anecdotes given would clearly fall outside of legal if not safe. However, IMHO, no one should confuse (legally conducted) aerobatic or formation flight with the other examples. Just my two cents...
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Last edited by joe_rainbolt : 11-04-2016 at 04:02 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #20  
Old 11-04-2016, 04:19 PM
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Bob Kuykendall Bob Kuykendall is offline
 
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I hope I'm not the only one to observe that there is perhaps a tiny bit of irony to saying "Don't try this at home!" in a community dedicated to building airplanes at home...

Anyhow, the rubric I apply where it comes to intentional misbehavior is this: Does it unduly endanger any who have not made an informed decision to engage in potentially risky activities?

A tangent: Back in my misspent youth, I campaigned Formula motorcycles on the California club racing scene, sponsored by a local Yamaha franchise. The franchise owner's last words were, and this is immortalized in the NTSB report, "Watch this." He then proceeded to pull the wings from his ratty old Luscombe attempting a loop; he and his wife plunged to their deaths.

Now every time I hear someone say "Hey, watch this!" in any context involving anything deadlier than a can opener, I cringe. Every time I start to say it, I stop. Every time I feel myself forming the thoughts behind "observe this exciting thing I am about to do," I back up and ask, who does this impress, and why, and how?

Does it impress with keen judgement? With skill?

Does it impress with perseverance? With insight?

What understanding does it impart? What vistas does it open in the mind of the observer?

And often I go ahead and do the thing. I make the pass, I call the glide, I set sail into the unknown. I do it mindful of the call of the wild ego, and I do it with some care, with awareness of the stakes. But I do it knowing that there is already enough mediocrity it the world, and that often you must temper your caution with a touch of boldness.
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