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  #1  
Old 09-16-2016, 04:04 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
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Default Fine Tuning RV-8 Landing Technique

This post is a manifestation of a head game for a new RV-8 tail wheel pilot. I am determined to find a technique that will have a predictable out come every time for me. Its probably in the boring column for experienced 8 pilots but it may be of interest for those still in the forest with a tail wheel like myself.

I have stopped "flaring" the airplane to land it.

I guess I should qualify that statement.

I know this is all a head game, you have to break the sink to land any airplane or it will contact the surface rudely and not be pleasant. What i've done is stopped using a deliberate traditional flare - raising nose, reducing power and landing.

I fly the machine to within 2 inches of the runway, level off and let it squeak on before reducing thrust. it works well, even with a little cross wind like today - just drop the up wind wing and the tire will touch.

I've been working on this the last few days. The outcome is satisfactory. After touch down (with ever so gentle forward stick) reduce power, fly the tail down, then full aft stick to keep it there.

The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.
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Last edited by David-aviator : 09-16-2016 at 04:56 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2016, 05:36 PM
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olyolson olyolson is offline
 
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Default Landing technique

Dave,

I know I don't have an -8 but with my long gear on my -4 your technique is what always works best for me. Fly 70 mph on final, fly it onto the runway and just as the wheels touch chop the power. I try to hold the tail off just a little and let it settle gently then a bit of fwd stick and gentle braking. If you can get off safely by E-3 on Rwy 26R at Spirit Airport then the technique is working.

For grass it's a little different and much more forgiving trying to 3 point it.

Oly
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  #3  
Old 09-16-2016, 09:14 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.
That is the one problem with developing a landing technique that focuses on only landing that way (well I guess it is not a problem, if you don't care if you ever land at airports with shorter runways).

That would rule out a lot of the fun airports here in the Pacific North West...

It can also limit your abilities if you are ever in a tough spot and have to land in a small space at minimum airspeed (forced landing).
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  #4  
Old 09-16-2016, 10:57 PM
Bighorn Bighorn is offline
 
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anytime you can re use the airplane after a landing...... is a good landing
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  #5  
Old 09-16-2016, 11:34 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyolson View Post
Dave,

I know I don't have an -8 but with my long gear on my -4 your technique is what always works best for me. Fly 70 mph on final, fly it onto the runway and just as the wheels touch chop the power. I try to hold the tail off just a little and let it settle gently then a bit of fwd stick and gentle braking. If you can get off safely by E-3 on Rwy 26R at Spirit Airport then the technique is working.

For grass it's a little different and much more forgiving trying to 3 point it.

Oly
Oly I have to add power to get to Echo 3 most days.

I still fly into Troy now and then but have lost the touch I had when living there and landing on 1700' of grass. It's a little more tense than it was, especially with a direct cross wind. The slightest bit of tail wind really makes that runway short, 5000' of concrete will spoil anyone.
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Last edited by David-aviator : 09-16-2016 at 11:54 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-17-2016, 05:16 AM
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Saville Saville is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
This post is a manifestation of a head game for a new RV-8 tail wheel pilot. I am determined to find a technique that will have a predictable out come every time for me. Its probably in the boring column for experienced 8 pilots but it may be of interest for those still in the forest with a tail wheel like myself.

I have stopped "flaring" the airplane to land it.

I guess I should qualify that statement.

I know this is all a head game, you have to break the sink to land any airplane or it will contact the surface rudely and not be pleasant. What i've done is stopped using a deliberate traditional flare - raising nose, reducing power and landing.

I fly the machine to within 2 inches of the runway, level off and let it squeak on before reducing thrust. it works well, even with a little cross wind like today - just drop the up wind wing and the tire will touch.

I've been working on this the last few days. The outcome is satisfactory. After touch down (with ever so gentle forward stick) reduce power, fly the tail down, then full aft stick to keep it there.

The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.
I had 80+ tailwheel hours and could grease a Decathlon on every landing when I bought my -8.

I found the -8 to be different in that it stops flying sharply when it decides to. The last 6" were the problem and I'd get a little hop out of it on contact.

So the technique that was suggested to me is get it to the 6" point and when you feel it about to stop flying add a tiny bit of power. Try to keep it flying as usual. If you feel the bottom drop out - add another few rpm. Nothing much. Just a tiny bit to get more prop wash over the wings. That smoothed things out.
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  #7  
Old 09-17-2016, 07:49 AM
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Alan Carroll Alan Carroll is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
The down side is, obviously, this is no short field technique. But it sure works well (for me) on a 5000' concrete runway. I estimate walking speed in about 1800' without using brakes. This is with approach speed of 65 knots, 40 flaps and power as needed to maintain VASI glide slope.
Dave,

When I started flying my -8 I generally wheel-landed using a similar technique. I could make remarkably smooth landings that way; occasionally I had to look down to make sure I was really on the ground. This was at an airport where the shortest runway was 6000'.

Since then I've moved to a different airport and evolved toward doing 3-pointers. I usually make the first taxiway without much drama (1100'); the tradeoff is that they're not always greasers. Sometimes I'll misjudge height slightly and get little hop (or two; they all count as landings right?). Often I'm dancing on the pedals a bit to keep it straight. The landings usually don't register on local seismometers though, and I haven't broken anything yet. The practice gives me confidence when going into shorter grass strips.

A side benefit is that the show is over while I'm still some distance from the terminal. Harder for the locals to see a bounce from a half mile away...
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Last edited by Alan Carroll : 09-17-2016 at 08:09 AM.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2016, 08:44 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carroll View Post
Dave,

When I started flying my -8 I generally wheel-landed using a similar technique. I could make remarkably smooth landings the way; occasionally I had to look down to make sure I was really on the ground. This was at an airport where the shortest runway was 6000'.

Since then I've moved to a different airport and evolved toward doing 3-pointers. I usually make the first taxiway without much drama (1100'); the tradeoff is that they're not always greasers. Sometimes I'll misjudge height slightly and get little hop (or two; they all count as landings right?). Often I'm dancing on the pedals a bit to keep it straight. The landings usually don't register on local seismometers though, and I haven't broken anything yet. The practice gives me confidence when going into shorter grass strips.

A side benefit is that the show is over while I'm still some distance from the terminal. Harder for the locals to see a bounce from a half mile away...
Thanks Alan, we are on the same page.

I first flew this thing out of a short runway and managed to survive with very little tail wheel experience. Now after moving and having the luxury of long runways, the short field experience has faded and it is work getting it done.

Practise, practice - it works. Even when feeling comfortable the 8 is a challenge when near stall and not on the ground. The landing may or may not be what one wants. The machine will be out of energy but it sure likes to get in a last minute bounce if it can.

I found on the short grass strip, a tail low landing and then forward stick to keep it there worked quite well. Had no trouble in stopping in less than 1000' unless there was a tail wind. Even the slightest tail wind really screwed it up. Somedays with a variable direct cross wind it was difficult choosing landing direction. It seemed there was a tail wind no matter what.

I also found some runway is lost holding it off for a 3 pointer. The wheel touch down and forward stick technique generally required no more runway. Granted, if you fly the approach at near stall and plop it on 3 points, the landing distance will be the least. But I don't like flying over trees at near stall speed.

A local CFI resident at that airport with thousands of hours tail wheel experience always lands on wheels with forward stick to keep it there. I have seen him do it with a Cub, RV-6, a Pitts and a Thorpe. And being over 80, he has been doing this a long time.

It is a matter of personal technique and what works for an individual.

The fly-it-on technique, and technique is what it is, seems to work just fine on a hard surface long runway, at least for me. And that's all that matters.

Dc-3's are always landed that way.
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2016, 09:08 AM
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rolivi rolivi is offline
 
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IF by Spirit you mean KSUS you've got a great shorter paved runway and a grass runway right next door at Creve Coeur (1H0) to practice on.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2016, 12:15 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Default DC3

DC3s are landed that way because of the less than forgiving stall characteristics with full flaps. Beech 18 is more forgiving stall but still not great. I have never tried to three point the Beech. Tail low wheel landing at a low speed but never three point. Reno racer landings in T6 and Unlimited are almost always tail low wheel landings except for Rare Bear which doesn't have prop clearance for a wheel landing.
Sukhoi 26/29/31 are always three point because of limited prop clearance.
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