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08-20-2016, 09:53 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN.
Posts: 4,792
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I've thought about this a lot - just got back from a 7 1/2 hour trip each way to New England and realized I spent most of it considering landing spots -- and I always thought ditching in water wouldn't be so bad. (I fly in MN so we're talking about lakes, not oceans. And I never fly over the Great Lakes except offshore Cleveland sometimes)
Then I went to an FAA seminar at Oshkosh a few years ago at Oshkosh about ditching in water , and had second thoughts.
However, if it's the only option, I think I actually WOULD prefer ditching close to shore although I'm aware of the story (ies) about people drowning in shallow water. Part of it is the fact I'm a better pilot than a swimmer.
Ideally, I'd ditch where there are people nearby. I saw a video this week of an old WWII plane ditching in the UK. People ran in and flipped the plane back over.
I think any way you look at it, getting a tip-up, in particular, open is going to be difficult in any scenario. That's a tremendous volume of water to displace.
Which is why I think it's absolutely critical for everyone to have a canopy breaker installed within easy reach. I think we need to accept that we're going to be upside down, we're going to be in the dark, and we're going to want to panic, and we're going to have to accept the fact that either way, we're going to be under water.
The last step before ditching is to unlock the canopy. But I've also come to the conclusion that the last step should actually be smashing the canopy. This would at least give the passenger something to do.
I think I'd rather be trying to get out of an inverted RV through a smashed canopy in shallow water, where I can feel ground and where I have comparatively more light, then to also have to fight sensation of a sinking ship in which it's getting progressively darker.
I hope I never have to find out.
Last edited by LettersFromFlyoverCountry : 08-20-2016 at 09:59 AM.
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08-22-2016, 09:46 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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I still think with the tip up that if I release the locks at the back and pull the pin at the front, it'll depart the aircraft PDQ when we hit the water and come to a quick stop. Yes, the cockpit will fill up faster, but the canopy will at least be out of the way. I'd still target being farther off-shore, as i'm a strong swimmer and want no chance of being trapped under the plane. I'll take my chances with the cold water.
Ditto on never wanting to test this.
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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08-22-2016, 10:02 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake
I still think with the tip up that if I release the locks at the back and pull the pin at the front, it'll depart the aircraft PDQ when we hit the water and come to a quick stop. Yes, the cockpit will fill up faster, but the canopy will at least be out of the way. I'd still target being farther off-shore, as i'm a strong swimmer and want no chance of being trapped under the plane. I'll take my chances with the cold water.
Ditto on never wanting to test this.
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When much younger, I used to barefoot water ski.
I was slapped silly and severely disoriented numerous times with impacts on water of only about 40 MPH.
I can't imagine what I would be like in a ditching situation with no canopy.
Not something that I would ever do, nor do I promote this idea to anyone else.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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08-22-2016, 12:50 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,692
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Interesting thread.
In regards to the accident scenario of being trapped upside down and drowning, I started wondering if there were attachments that would make it easy to use the oxygen tank I carry available for use underwater in an emergency.
I assume the cannulas are right out. Maybe just sticking the tube in your mouth????
__________________
Bill Pendergrass
ME/AE '82
RV-7A: Flying since April 15, 2012. 850 hrs
YIO-360-M1B, mags, CS, GRT EX and WS H1s & A/P, Navworx
Unpainted, polished....kinda'... Eyeballin' vinyl really hard.
Yeah. The boss got a Silhouette Cameo 4 Xmas 2019.
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08-22-2016, 06:35 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Oliver BC & Red Deer Alberta Canada
Posts: 350
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As I'm in lake country here in BC this has always been in the back of my mind.
Upside down in the water in a RV4, your feet dry and water coming in around your head, hoping you can hold your breath long enough so there is enough water in the cabin so you can open the canopy and hopefully slide out if you're not hung up.
Trying to get a good swing to break the canopy with anything in that position would not be easy.
I'm almost 6 ft and 220 pounds so it wouldn't take much and I'd be stuck. As it is its difficult to get into and out of at the best of times.
If your lucky enough maybe a large container ship or a tanker off the west coast would be a better option to try and land on?
Has anyone one got a fuselage that they could donate for a practice water egress?
Tim
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08-22-2016, 09:06 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Laguna Hills, CA
Posts: 1,805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riobison
Has anyone one got a fuselage that they could donate for a practice water egress?
Tim
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I like it! Build a water landing simulator/dunk tank, set up at Oshkosh or Sun-n-Fun. Charge $25 a ride, and time people to see how long it takes to get out.
Will never happen because of liability issues, but it's a fun idea to entertain.
__________________
Doug
RV-9A "slider"
Flew to Osh in 2017, 2018 & 2019! 
Tail number N427DK
Donation made for 2020
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky -- Amelia Earhart
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08-23-2016, 08:15 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riobison
Upside down in the water in a RV4, your feet dry and water coming in around your head, hoping you can hold your breath long enough so there is enough water in the cabin so you can open the canopy and hopefully slide out if you're not hung up.
Trying to get a good swing to break the canopy with anything in that position would not be easy.
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A much more important consideration is the damping effect all the water pushing on the outside of the canopy will have. I wouldn't expect hitting it with a breaker bar to do much.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
When much younger, I used to barefoot water ski.
I was slapped silly and severely disoriented numerous times with impacts on water of only about 40 MPH.
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I have considered this, but even flying sans-helmet I would take that chance. I expect that the wheels would bring the plane to a pretty quick stop, and the speed will bleed rapidly as the nose submarines into the water. It'll be disorienting, but i'd rather be disoriented and be able to egress, than trapped under a bubble I can't open.
I've also thought through the possibility of forcing one wingtip onto the water with aileron just as the tailwheel hits the water. That would convert some of the linear momentum into angular momentum, and possibly prevent turning over in the first place. It would add lateral deceleration forces to the occupants though, so more thought is needed on this.
Ideally, the solution would be to jettison the landing gear.  At least then you'd likely stay upright.
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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08-23-2016, 11:10 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,291
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Rob - your idea of dipping a wingtip sounds good at first blush but doesn't work out very well for the occupants. The lateral deceleration forces working on the aircraft as a result of the asymmetric drag (angular momentum, as you put it) cause the occupants heads to move laterally. We design airplanes for forward impacts and thus have clear space in front of our heads. Not so for lateral impacts where our heads tend to bounce off hard structure. Our seat belts are also designed to provide support in the longitudinal direction.
The probability of head/neck/spine injury is greatly increased in crashes where there is lateral deceleration.
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08-23-2016, 11:31 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 846
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water
As someone who in a past life had a lot of experience walking their wheels on water for fun and games I would plant my wheels on the around a 100mph and start easing back on the stick as my speed bleed off then a tail low at last second and hope for the best.If you fly over the water often you might want to practice up beforehand.
Bob
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08-23-2016, 11:34 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Landing field "12VA"
Posts: 1,530
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Might be a lot easier said than done
Dipping a wingtip first.
Let's see - we're full aft stick coming in low and slow for a full stall ditching at a few feet above mean sea level. At the last possible minute we're going to kick in full right (say) rudder and yaw the left wingtip out in front, if we can. That's going to roll us to the right and stall the inboard wing first. Left aileron to try to plant the rising left wingtip into the water is just going to deepen the stall of the right wing, increasing the right snap even more...
Best chance to pull this off might mean full right rudder and full right aileron in the hopes that it breaks straight ahead or even a little left wing first, but I'd say there's no guarantee. Not sure practicing this at altitude would even let you predict what would happen in ground effect in the real emergency.
I like the Lithium SawzAll and James Bond scuba more with each passing post here 
__________________
Bill Boyd
Hop-Along Aerodrome (12VA)
RV-6A - N30YD - Built '98 / sold '20
RV-10 - N130YD reserved - under construction
donating monthly to the VAF - thanks, Doug
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