Is a Nav Receiver Required for IFR Today?

[DRMA]

I'm looking for opinions from current IFR rated pilots and CFII's regarding the need for a VOR/ILS navigation receiver for IFR operations with a modern G3X panel with Garmin 625 navigator.

With GPS navigation and modern ADSB, is it worth spending the additional ~$5000 to include a VOR/ILS receiver (e.g. a Garmin 650 instead of the 625) in the panel for the RV-10 that I am building? I've asked a few people and received mixed responses. If the VOR/ILS is going the way of the NDB, I don't want to spend big bucks to install one in my panel and not use it.

Thanks
Dave Macdonald

[BobTurner]

Well, there certainly are aircraft that are flying ifr with just gps. But not me.
1. I want backup. Not a 650 instead of 625, but a separate box.
2. $5K is way out of bounds. Half that will get you a nav and a second com.
3. I personally have shot an ILS near minimums, where the GPS approach minimums were 100' higher and would not have gotten us in.
4. You cannot take the ifr test with just a gps, nor can you take an IPC.

[GalinHdz]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

Well, there certainly are aircraft that are flying ifr with just gps. But not me.
1. I want backup. Not a 650 instead of 625, but a separate box.
2. $5K is way out of bounds. Half that will get you a nav and a second com.
3. I personally have shot an ILS near minimums, where the GPS approach minimums were 100' higher and would not have gotten us in.
4. You cannot take the ifr test with just a gps, nor can you take an IPC.

Completely agree. I also want backup not just additional capability in one box.

FWIW I have a G430W (gives me GPS/ILS/VOR/LOC) as primary but also have a VAL INS-429 (gives me ILS/VOR/LOC) as my backup. The VAL cost less than $1,800.00 and is a very good piece of equipment.

[robimagu]

Not required with TSO C146c equipment for the United States. Still required in Canada. I'm GPS only (4 receivers on board) and fly IFR. I am very conservative and will delay or forgo a flight for benign conditions. I carry and have practiced ILS approaches with a hand held Sporty's SP-400 mounted to be in my line of sight. Works well. I get my flight review through work, so my setup works for me.

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by robimagu

. I carry and have practiced ILS approaches with a hand held Sporty's SP-400 mounted to be in my line of sight.]

As far as I'm concerned you are NOT 'gps only'.

[woxofswa]

I love GPS, but it is still controlled and operated by the military which makes it a strategic asset and target.
I have flown airliners where the GPS went "poof" and disappeared. Once was a planned and NOTAM'd outage near White Sands NM and the other near the CA/OR border that was not preannounced and even took controllers by surprise.
The stand alone individuality of the ground based VOR/ILS system is what makes the collective network so dependable as it has been for decades.

[219PB]

Originally Posted by DRMA

I'm looking for opinions from current IFR rated pilots and CFII's regarding the need for a VOR/ILS navigation receiver for IFR operations with a modern G3X panel with Garmin 625 navigator.

With GPS navigation and modern ADSB, is it worth spending the additional ~$5000 to include a VOR/ILS receiver (e.g. a Garmin 650 instead of the 625) in the panel for the RV-10 that I am building? I've asked a few people and received mixed responses. If the VOR/ILS is going the way of the NDB, I don't want to spend big bucks to install one in my panel and not use it.

Thanks
Dave Macdonald

I was researching the same topic as you a couple of months ago and my EAA buddies gave me all kinds of answers. I then called the FSDO in San Antonio which was very helpful and the guy I spoke with was definitely a friend of the experimental world. I am not IFR rated and asked him the same question.

I am at that state in my build that I am making the same decisions. He stated that one can get their IFR certification and fly GPS approaches with only a certified GPS installed in the aircraft. I am not well versed in the IFR lingo but their are two standard typical GPS approaches and to get your certification you have to fly three. The third is a GPS overlay on a VOR approach. They are not as common and he stated that I will have to take that into account when selecting an examiner. I will have to pick one that is in the general area to one of these approaches.

I am not going to be a hard IFR pilot. If a VOR will get me 100' foot lower then I will have to postpone my flight. The way I understand it is that the VORs are slowing being attritioned out of service. If the GPS's are a military target and they are affected, the airspace will be shut down anyway just like they did in 2001. He also told me that more and more of the GPS overlay approaches will be installed at airports as the VOR's disappear.

After his comments, I plan to install a Garmin 625 that I picked up new for $5500. The components in the EFIS will supply the rest of the equipment necessary for the IFR flight.

[C. Brenden]

It is quite common for there to be planned GPS jamming in White Sands, NM. I work as a controller in this area and we see this about 1 period a month - usually for about 3 days. Most aircraft do have their GPS drop off line for a few hundred miles. We have been instructed that if IMC conditions exist, and an aircraft HAS to do an IFR GPS approach, it might be able to be suspended. That said, I've never seen that happen. There are usually easier alternatives.
Many aircraft are on direct routes these days and when the GPS signal is jammed many aircraft are issued an assigned heading until within range of the next VOR.

[BobTurner]

Paul,
Interesting answer you got from the local FSDO guy. The front of the instrument PTS lists the different kinds of approaches, and 'GPS overlay' is not one of them. After all, it is just a LNAV approach that happens to coincide with a VOR approach. I suspect that sooner or later the FAA will change this rule to accommodate gps-only airplanes, but for now I don't think this inspector's interpretation would stand up in DC.

[RV Wannabe]

Originally Posted by 219PB

If the GPS's are a military target and they are affected, the airspace will be shut down anyway just like they did in 2001.

As written this is not true. If it were written airspace "may" be shut down, then yes.

I see GPS unavailable, or scrambled where your gps location is in error significantly at work quite often. Usually it is notamed and known in advance, but on occasion pops up without warning.

Mark