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06-07-2016, 08:09 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shawnee, Kansas
Posts: 804
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Still reading... keep going
I just wanted all posters to know, this is all great info and I'm glad I asked. All great research.
__________________
Bruce Meacham
Building RV-4A 18ZM
Built/Own RV-4 254MM
First RV RV-3 3456B
VAF annual donation on autopay
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06-08-2016, 08:36 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Puget Sound Area, WA
Posts: 220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Palmer
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The Eagle EMS is a blend of modern electronic control with aviation mechanical injection. EFII?s electronic port injection system is similar to a modern automobile fuel system design.
EFII has the capability to adjust timing and mixture in-flight; Eagle EMS does not. The EFII system is more adaptable to auto fuel. The EFII system has a typical pressurized fuel rail design and thus requires a fuel return system whereas the Eagle EMS system does not require this. The EFII system is more customizable and, if desired, can flow lots of fuel for high-performance (racing) applications.
The Eagle EMS system utilizes the typical mechanical fuel pump plus an electronic boost pump; the EFII system uses redundant electronic fuel pumps (Walbro).
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As a user of this system, I would take exception here about the lack of capability to make adjustments inflight. We are able to make inflight adjustments to fuel through a lean pot that allows us to further lean inflight. However, if your cylinders should hit 400 degrees, it will ignore this input and make both timing and fuel adjustments automatically to get the cylinders from getting hotter.
I'm not sure why you think the Eagle is mechanical. Each injector is pulsed separately and is sequential, i.e. won't get a wasted fuel shot like a mechanical system.
The Eagle system is just as capable of using mogas as EFII.
The system is easy to adjust and is totally configurable. Tt also provides a verbose data feed that you can store in a spreadsheet for analysis.
The Precision folks can provide config files for your specific engine and help tweak them if necessary. I also installed a O2 sensor and gauge to help verify the results and further refine my setup.
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06-08-2016, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 387
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Eagle EMS Data
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the correction on the Eagle EMS mixture adjustment knob. I didn?t see a mixture adjustment knob in the list of Eagle EMS components in the ?System Components? section of the Eagle EMS website. However, I see it is referenced in the FAQ and Photo sections as a ?mixture control potentiometer? or ?lean pot:?
http://www.precisionairmotive.com/ea...echFAQ.htm#Q01
http://www.precisionairmotive.com/ea...tallphotos.htm
My comments on auto fuel and in-flight variable timing were based on the following quotes in the Eagle EMS website Q&A section:
http://www.precisionairmotive.com/ea...stions.htm#Q17
Q: What about the use of other fuels; like autogas?
A: We never recommend the use of auto fuel, because it can contain alcohol, is of variable quality, and has a reduced shelf life. The Eagle is calibrated for avgas. Auto gas with ethanol could require a completely different calibration, and we are not looking into that at this time. However, the Eagle could use non-alcohol auto gas with little or no re-calibration.
EFII Note: The EFII system is compatible with, and adaptable to, autogas with or without ethanol, and EFII?s standard mapping is compatible with premium autogas running on engines up to 9:1 compression. Just as an aside, EFII can control variable methanol injection in racing applications (ADI ? Anti-Detonation Injection).
Q. Does the Eagle EMS provide variable ignition timing?
A. The Eagle EMS will be delivered from the factory with fixed timing matching the magneto timing. The timing can be adjusted based on engine RPM and manifold pressure if desired. These changes would be made by a qualified engine shop based on input from the customer. The system will not have cockpit-adjustable timing.
Kevin,
Thanks again for setting me straight relative to the Eagle EMS! It?s certainly a nice FADEC system. No argument there! How many Eagle EMS systems are installed out there? Awhile ago, I heard a number of ?about 40,? but I haven?t heard about many installs lately. I assume that price may be a reason?
Best Regards,
__________________
Bill Palmer
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06-08-2016, 01:00 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 5,766
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More Comparisons
With the SDS setup we can individually trim the fuel to each cylinder to get virtually zero GAMI spread, in flight, in about 30 seconds though the standard panel mount programmer which is quick and intuitive to use.
We can also advance the timing when running LOP for optimal power and fuel economy with our advance switch in about 1 second, from the cockpit. The amount is user programmable as well. As shown by some of our CPI users, this results in significantly better fuel economy/speed by optimizing the point of PCP with slow burning LOP mixtures.
V27 software also allows user programmable cranking retard for engines with high CR pistons.
Data logging all sensor channels to a Windows device is also available.
We now provide direct head mount injectors for both PV and AV Lycomings. These do not require head machining like those for the Eagle system.
As a reference to numbers of units, it's not unusual for us to supply 10-20 ECUs in a single week. Some of our military users have ordered 20-60 units at a time. Our estimate now is that the SDS ECU fleet has accumulated over 400,000 flight hours.
Last edited by rv6ejguy : 06-08-2016 at 01:19 PM.
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06-09-2016, 11:50 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fayetteville GA
Posts: 17
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Eagle works good for me
I switched over to the Eagle system last winter and so far I have no regrets whatsoever. It runs smoothly and usually starts on the second blade. It is so simple I don't have to think about it.
For most operations, i have found that I just leave the mixture rheostat in the 12:00 position (best power) until I get to cruse (if I'm going someplace), then rotate it back to about the 9:00 position for better economy.
If you are the type of person who wants to tweek the fuel flows, find peek temperatures, and run a super efficient airplane, then that is available to you. The fuel injectors can be individually adjusted using the software to be slightly richer or leaner than the others to eliminate the GAMI spread, but I found that they were pretty darn close to begin with.
Me, most of the time I'm out flying formation with my friends chasing each other around the sky on the weekends and having a whole lot of fun flying our RV's. I don't want to mess with the mixture, and I don't have to. The Engine Management System takes care of it for me.
I'm sure that the EFII system would do the same thing, maybe even a bit cheaper, but the installation was going to be easier for me with the Eagle system; no fuel lines to run back to the tank and I could use the electrical and mechanical fuel pumps that I already had.
Dane Patterson
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06-09-2016, 12:52 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Savannah
Posts: 806
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For technical purposes it is worth noting that none of these systems are true FADEC systems.
__________________
Mike Hammond
A&P IA PPL ASEL
RV-14A kit S/N 140170
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06-09-2016, 12:52 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 659
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Great info to have, thanks for those who are posting, especially the actual manufactures.
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www.N1017H.com
Tim Huneycutt, Capt, NCANG
PC-12 Pilot
N1017H RV-10 Flying 2019
EAA #: 1106970
2020 VAF Dues Paid!
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06-10-2016, 07:17 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shawnee, Kansas
Posts: 804
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tomatoe.. tomatoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H
For technical purposes it is worth noting that none of these systems are true FADEC systems.
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You say ""either"" and I say ""either""
You say ""neither"" I say ""neither""
""Either"" ""either"", ""neither"" ""neither""
Let's call the whole thing off
FADEC - No pilot input, true single lever
EEC - Limited pilot input typically implies prop management as well, but not necessarily.
EFI/EI - Stand alone system with or without some pilot input, no prop controls
__________________
Bruce Meacham
Building RV-4A 18ZM
Built/Own RV-4 254MM
First RV RV-3 3456B
VAF annual donation on autopay
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06-10-2016, 07:39 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shawnee, Kansas
Posts: 804
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No input...
I have one particular requirement I'd like to know customers input on...
After initial setup and config I don't want any panel devices, even a dial. I just want to sit back fat dumb and happy with the 2-axis AP on and the engine clicking away the miles into the sunset playing music and enjoying the view.
It seems pretty obvious to me that you need a slightly rich setting on take-off and a lean setting for cruise... From customer input, is that practical to config for all OATs, altitudes, rain, ice...?
btw... all the mfg I've asked say it can work that way. But I don't entirely believe them.
__________________
Bruce Meacham
Building RV-4A 18ZM
Built/Own RV-4 254MM
First RV RV-3 3456B
VAF annual donation on autopay
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06-10-2016, 07:50 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: oregon
Posts: 94
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You could try and get your hands on Lycomings new IE2 - its a true single control push button start 540 being used in the Lancair Evolution. That would be a fun engine.
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