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06-05-2016, 01:41 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
Even though technically, "logbooks" are not required, as such, maintenance records are, and logbooks are the simplest way of keeping these records.
Maintenance records are required for entries such as Airworthiness sign-off, Phase I sign-off, condition inspections, ELT inspections, transponder inspections, etc.
These records must be made available to the FAA within a reasonable time if requested.
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If it is a major rebuild, could he just re-apply for a new airworthiness and re-do the Phase I flying time?
Essentially reset the airframe time to zero...
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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06-05-2016, 03:06 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
If it is a major rebuild, could he just re-apply for a new airworthiness and re-do the Phase I flying time?
Essentially reset the airframe time to zero...
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Not technically. Once an aircraft has been issued an Airworthiness Certificate it stays with the aircraft until scrapped or similar. To receive a new airworthiness certificate you would have to have logs documenting that you, or a group of amateurs, built more than 51% of the aircraft. As an example, re-assembling various pieces from multiple scrapped aircraft would not really count as an amateur-built aircraft. There is a checklist on the FAA website for aircraft not on the 51% list that you could work through to see if you have performed 51% of the tasks to qualify for an amateur-built aircraft.
BTW, whomever mentioned that logbooks are technically not needed-----yes, perhaps. But just like your pilot logbook, there are various items that are required to be performed and a record kept, such as Phase I, aerobatic maneuvers performed, Condition Inspections, ELT, transponder and pitot-static checks (if appropriate), etc. It is the norm to keep those in logbooks.
I just inspected an RV-8 this past week that had been flying for many years and had approximately 150 hours on it. The logbook was a "notebook" much like one would use in school, by itself not really a problem, just not a best practice. In that "notebook" there was never any record of Phase I being completed, no aerobatic maneuvers signed off, the CI was recorded as "annual" (the only words used) with a date and no certificate number. The owner/builder did not hold a repairman's certificate or A&P rating.
I know we have a growing number of owners on this board that are second and third owners, and have not been part of the building process. You may not be aware that there are different requirements for paperwork associated with amateur-built aircraft as opposed to the Certified aircraft in which you probably learned to fly. Take a look at your Airworthiness Certificate (which is also supposed to be in the aircraft and displayed) and you will notice that it is a SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS Certificate, as opposed to a STANDARD AIRWORTHINESS certificate, and it clearly states that the Operating Limitations are a part of the Certificate. Please verify your Operating Limitations are in your aircraft, as required, and that the appropriate verbiage for various inspections are in your aircraft logbooks IAW your limitations. Usually the verbiage is spelled out in the Limitations.
If you don't have your Limitations, or can't find them, usually a call to the FAA in OKC will get you a copy.
If you are unsure, please don't hesitate to ask on this Forum or contact me directly.
Vic
__________________
 Vic Syracuse
Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
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06-05-2016, 03:56 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Actually he could do a recurrent airworthiness.
Speaking of finding things not noticed for years, I had a request to do an amended airworthiness to bring op lims up to date and add aerobatics on an RV-3 that had been flying since 1984.
It had condition inspections signed off every year. One thing that had been missed on every condition inspection was that the airworthiness certificate expired in 1985.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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06-05-2016, 04:42 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shawnee, Kansas
Posts: 804
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FYI... I've already talked to the FSDO. I'm covered. It's got a valid airworthiness & registration (never de-registered), all I need to do is find an A&P that will work with me to ensure it is in a condition to fly again (annual conditional inspection). We'll have to redo or verify all the ADs/SBs, but probably not a bad thing either.
-Bruce
__________________
Bruce Meacham
Building RV-4A 18ZM
Built/Own RV-4 254MM
First RV RV-3 3456B
VAF annual donation on autopay
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06-05-2016, 05:42 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: hilltop lakes' Texas
Posts: 135
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Logbooks
I agree on the lowball offer, only $100 bucks. What value are the logs without the aircraft?
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06-05-2016, 05:48 PM
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unqualified unfluencer
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Highland Village, TX
Posts: 4,088
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Bruce,
Is the guy holding the logs ransom a user of my site here? You can PM me the username if you wish. I'll unlock his account if he gives you a $2000 discount on your logbooks...
v/r,
dr 
__________________
Doug Reeves (your host) - Full time: VansAirForce.net since '07 (started it in '96).
- Part time: Supporting Crew Member CAE Embraer Phenom 300 (E55P) @ KDFW.
- Occasionally: Contract pilot (resume).
Last edited by DeltaRomeo : 06-05-2016 at 06:02 PM.
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06-05-2016, 07:03 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
It had condition inspections signed off every year. One thing that had been missed on every condition inspection was that the airworthiness certificate expired in 1985.
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I don't think my A/W certificate has any expiration date on it.??
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06-05-2016, 08:59 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
I don't think my A/W certificate has any expiration date on it.??
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Most current airworthiness certificates have an "unlimited" expiry.
Years ago it was not unusual to issue the A/W for phase I only with a one year expiration. It is still done under certain circumstances, but it is no longer common.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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06-05-2016, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shawnee, Kansas
Posts: 804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaRomeo
Bruce,
Is the guy holding the logs ransom a user of my site here? You can PM me the username if you wish. I'll unlock his account if he gives you a $2000 discount on your logbooks...
v/r,
dr 
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non-pilot... I feel kinda bad, I think he thought he had additional income and he feels slighted. Really just doesn't understand what he was selling, I honestly don't think i took advantage, I have assume a ton of risk. Engine could easily be trash inside, I could lose money and a ton of time on this deal.
I know all too well how to make a million in aviation...
[ed. Roger copy non-pilot, non-VAF user. Thanks for the update, Bruce. v/r,dr]
__________________
Bruce Meacham
Building RV-4A 18ZM
Built/Own RV-4 254MM
First RV RV-3 3456B
VAF annual donation on autopay
Last edited by DeltaRomeo : 06-06-2016 at 03:09 PM.
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06-05-2016, 09:02 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shawnee, Kansas
Posts: 804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
I don't think my A/W certificate has any expiration date on it.??
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It does not... but insurance companies will send in the de-registration when they total an aircraft. I was merely stating it was not de-registered.
__________________
Bruce Meacham
Building RV-4A 18ZM
Built/Own RV-4 254MM
First RV RV-3 3456B
VAF annual donation on autopay
Last edited by BruceMe : 06-05-2016 at 09:06 PM.
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