Old Build (flying) - Flap/Aileron Alignment

[aerhed]

Fifties music will slow your plane down. Try the Ramones instead.

[Nate-ISU]

Love the suggestions! I think they are spot on. I've personally had her through three condition inspections now. I never really saw it as unsafe but curiosity finally got to me and I had to ask. I'll keep feeding her avgas and grinning all the while!

[SHIPCHIEF]

It looks to me like your left aileron might be a bit low. I changed the ailerons on my wife's RV-4 (hangar rash). Van's sells pebuilt RV-8 ailerons that fit right on. I also installed new Vans made hinge pieces that are U shape 4130 steel. These are pre-drilled and the aileron fit was a lot better to the wing. It flies better now too. These hinge pieces are the key to fitting the aileron to the wing. They are not expensive and removing the aileron from the wing to alter or replace them is not difficult.
One way to tell if an aileron is low: fly in the rain. The normal or high aileron will be clean on top. The low aileron will have standing water droplets sitting on top. My RV-8 is that way, but the roll to the right is so slight that I just burn off the right tank first.
A funny note; When I had the left hand turning Mazda Rotary engine / prop, the trim was perfect. Go figure.

[joeboisselle]

Only thing I can think of is that the right rear spar was installed upside down. It's easy to do if you build them both at the same time and even the build manual warns against this. They have you build the left wing first, which turns out correct but while you're at it you build the right wing spars at the same time and to look the same. (It's a heavy duty project.) But you have to look closely at which side is top and bottom. Or even know there is a top and bottom. Ask me how I know.
Check the rear spar attach points on both side and see if they're drilled to the carry through in the fuse the same. Do the wing tips fit nicely on both sides or does one sit a little differently than the other?
edit: Heck, worst case scenario you have an upside down left wing on the right. The plans only show the left wing and you have to mentally build it opposite for the right.

[az_gila]

Originally Posted by joeboisselle

Only thing I can think of is that the right rear spar was installed upside down. It's easy to do if you build them both at the same time and even the build manual warns against this. They have you build the left wing first, which turns out correct but while you're at it you build the right wing spars at the same time and to look the same. (It's a heavy duty project.) But you have to look closely at which side is top and bottom. Or even know there is a top and bottom. Ask me how I know.
Check the rear spar attach points on both side and see if they're drilled to the carry through in the fuse the same. Do the wing tips fit nicely on both sides or does one sit a little differently than the other?
edit: Heck, worst case scenario you have an upside down left wing on the right. The plans only show the left wing and you have to mentally build it opposite for the right.

How can you put a rear spar in upside down at assembly time?

The two flanges are bent in opposite directions, one at 82 degrees and the other a 95.5 degrees. Since one is more than a rt angle and the other is less, the 13.5 degree difference is noticeable and the wrong flange will fit for c**p against the ribs...

[daddyman]

Originally Posted by Nate-ISU

Appreciate the comments up to this point!

Are the the control surfaces twisted?

Not that is visible from the eye that I can tell. I could place a 2x4 or similar across the surface and check whatever gap there may be but if it were twisted to such a degree to cause that sort of alignment issue, I believe it'd be easy to see with the naked eye. Unless I'm mis-understanding your question.

Do you have the build manual and drawings?

I have the original plans & logbooks. No documentation/pictures of the build process.

It looks like the builder lowered the hinge point to line up with the flap. On the right wing, it almost looks like the flap is not "up" all the way

Good observation on the aileron. As for the flap not being 'up,' I agree, that's exactly what it looks like--but it definitely meets at the fuse consistent with the left flap and there is no play if you attempt to 'pull up' lightly on the flaps when fully retracted as they are here. That's what boggles my mind; visually, it looks as if it needs to retract further, but any more and it would be far above where it meets the fuse, just 'moving' the problem.

Unless this is a really big issue to you, you just might be better off to enjoy how it flies, and accept how it looks.

Other than looking ugly, its apparently been flying this way for years and like I said, flies hands off so I can't complain other than the visual aspect (assuming it's not a safety of flight issue--asking those sorts of questions are like asking for legal advice on the internet, I need to just speak to a builder) My plan has been to fly it until FWF needs something major then strip it down and fix the nuances but thought it was worth fielding the questions to this awesome community.

I just aligned both mine. I too did not notice it because mine also flew hands off.
It was brought to my attention by Carl "Wizard" Froehlich.
Note: when the flaps are down also check to make sure there is a thin stop nut at the bottom of the flap eyelet.
Can't see from your pictures.

I also saw no canopy hold open mechanism.
Install one, or risk loosing your canopy when the engine is running, even 1" open is enough to rip it clean off. Also the string will not hold it if the canopy is open and another aircraft starts in the vicinity, or even a strong gust.

Daddyman
N262 DF almost 200 hrs now on a 1996 model
Dues paid

[joeboisselle]

Originally Posted by az_gila

How can you put a rear spar in upside down at assembly time?

The two flanges are bent in opposite directions, one at 82 degrees and the other a 95.5 degrees. Since one is more than a rt angle and the other is less, the 13.5 degree difference is noticeable and the wrong flange will fit for c**p against the ribs...

\

Upside down backwards works. You don't really notice till you start stapling skins down and your aft rivets don't hold the skin flush to the spar.
But this explains why his ailerons have a difference of around 13.5 degrees. I did this 15 years ago, fresh out of a&p and my FIRST right wing looked exactly like this.

[Michael Henning]

See about getting a set of Preview Plans. They will give you enough info to determine if (where) things were put together wrong.

[RogerG]

The flap spar may have been installed upside down. The top flange is 99-1/2 Deg., and the bottom 96. If the right flap hinge was installed on the 99-1/2 this would cause the flap to drop down further when controls are neutral.

It is not easy to see the 3-1/2 Deg. difference between flanges when the spar is on the bench, and requires careful study to get the correct flange on bottom. The best way to think of it is you need the bend that is closest to a 90 on bottom, and the more open bend on top.

The problem with the left flap trailing edge not in alignment is due to builder possibly not waiting to install top flap skin until mounting flap hinge to flap brace on the wing. Plans call for waiting to drill top skin which produces the trailing edge until this point which allows builder to get trailing edge aligned with aileron. At this point small alignment changes could be made with both the hinge, and trailing edge of top flap skin.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Nate-ISU]

Wow--this is fantastic everyone. RogerG, thank you for that image!

Very interesting. I still have the plans rolled up, I'm going to take a closer look at them and see if I can get the mental picture in my head. I'm sure the flap has to come off before I can see anything of value; perhaps more--\can't really tell with the attached image and am having a hard time 'seeing it' in my mind so I'll roll out the plans tonight and take a closer look to see if it's something that I can confirm/deny without getting very invasive/taking skins off, etc.