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  #31  
Old 03-18-2016, 06:37 AM
BillL BillL is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 6,320
Default A more capable, and affordable, aerobatic plane?

With the heritage of aerobatics (gentleman) in the RV's, how would a more capable aerobatic plane fit in the RV line? Something based on the 8 with more Vne speed, G loading, and lower weight. Maybe with the AEIO-360 (or a likeness)


How many of the RV philosophy buttons could that meet without getting rejected?
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  #32  
Old 03-18-2016, 11:51 AM
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ChiefPilot ChiefPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1,580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillL View Post
With the heritage of aerobatics (gentleman) in the RV's, how would a more capable aerobatic plane fit in the RV line? Something based on the 8 with more Vne speed, G loading, and lower weight. Maybe with the AEIO-360 (or a likeness)


How many of the RV philosophy buttons could that meet without getting rejected?
How much more competitive do you want to get? An RV is already good through Sportsman; going Unlimited will likely result in something that doesn't look like an RV at all (look at current Unlimited designs, for example).
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  #33  
Old 03-18-2016, 02:04 PM
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Palamedes Palamedes is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Blairsville, GA
Posts: 202
Default

So I really like the Derringer.. I like the idea, I like the look.

BUT!

I think I'm spoiled by the RV-10 plans.

I have to hand it to Van's. They make making an airplane TRIVIAL! I have often compared them to Ikea. If you can put tab-A in slot-B over and over, you can build anything!

Combine that with the fact that everything is pre-drilled and shaped.. wow.. I mean.. wow.. seriously..

Any other plane project would likely seem like 10x the work.


(Thank you Van's!)

Now.. Please make a twin so I can buy it =)
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  #34  
Old 03-30-2016, 04:19 PM
Bob Kuykendall's Avatar
Bob Kuykendall Bob Kuykendall is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vallecito, CA
Posts: 593
Default Eat Icon's Lunch

Resurrecting this thread with an idea I posted elsewhere. Yes, it's RV-related.

I propose that the next RV kit should move into the market space being developed by the Icon A5 amphibian guys. Vans business model has always been to either offer something for which there is no equivalent production aircraft (most RVs) or for which a kitplane can undercut production aircraft by ~50% (RV-10). I think that an A5 competitor would fit perfectly with this model.

My proposal is that they start with the basic RV-12 design and go from there. Ditch the fuselage and replace it with a combination of aluminum panels and carbon fiber hull moldings that looks enough unlike the A5 to get them around the bizarre patent laws that protect boat hulls. Plug the RV-12 wings into the top, hang the RV-12 motor onto the back, plop the RV-12 stabilator onto the carbon fiber fin, add retractable gear and there you are. The big plastic parts and the retractable gear have bumped the price by about 35%, and it is not going to have that lovely supercar interior, but you've achieved 90% of the A5's performance and functionality for less than 50% the price.

Flame suit on!

Thanks, Bob K.
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  #35  
Old 03-30-2016, 05:14 PM
rv4bill rv4bill is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: orlando
Posts: 187
Default No flame suit needed

It's already been done. It's called a SeaRey. I owned for three years the first one ever built. It started life at 700 pounds and flew behind a 65 hp rotax 2 stroke. Now it flys with the 914, certified lsa and barely can fly two people with full fuel legally. Still performs much better than the icon. If in doubt, take a demo ride at sun n fun or Oshkosh in the SeaRey and then the icon.

Maybe I need the flame suit now😀 BTW, If someone would produce and sell Virtual flame suits on this site they could retire!
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  #36  
Old 03-30-2016, 05:28 PM
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Bob Kuykendall Bob Kuykendall is offline
 
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Location: Vallecito, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv4bill View Post
It's already been done. It's called a SeaRey...
Yup, the SeaRey comes pretty close to what I have in mind. I just think that there is some wiggle room to come a bit closer yet without breaking the bank, and that the RV-12 is a good platform to start from.

Thanks, Bob K.
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  #37  
Old 03-30-2016, 05:49 PM
rv4bill rv4bill is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: orlando
Posts: 187
Default SeaRey/Rv-15

The SeaRey kit and rv12 are roughly the same price already. You start adding water hull/sponsons and a retract gear system to an rv12 platform and the cost will be getting up there with the icon. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see vans venture into that market but I really doubt you'd get anywhere close to that 50% less than icon price. Both the SeaRey and Icon qualify for light sport but they sure are struggling weight wise to get there.
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  #38  
Old 03-30-2016, 07:34 PM
Mike H Mike H is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Savannah
Posts: 806
Default Fat boy RV-8...ala RV-14

How about a heavy duty, fat boy tandem that could comfortably fit two 6'3" 250lb guys with an IO-390 using -14 wings and tail?
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2016, 10:41 PM
patterson patterson is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queen Creek AZ
Posts: 587
Default Van's produced F-4

Let me say up front that I am no Aeronautical Engineer and probably don't understand what may be a fatal flaw in my idea....But, here I go anyway


The FREDRICK/VANS F-4 LITE

or The VANS/FREDRICK F-4 LITE


*Most already know about this concept, but in case you don't, it's a Fredrick F1 Rocket with a 4 cylinder motor, different motor mount and cowl, but essentially looks just like an F1. It would be RV climb and performance level, not 3500' and minute like the F-1. I talked with Mark about the idea years ago but the focus then was on big HP and speed. The idea seems to be catching on now.

I personally think Mark Fredrick has made a (slightly) better mousetrap using Vans design ideas. Plus, almost all of us who like Van's tail-dragger tandems love the F1 look and carrying capacity. Seems a no brainer to me. I recently suggested this to Mark but he said he didn't think Van was interested, possibly due to liability concerns.

I don't know Van personally, so I haven't picked up the phone to chat him up about my idea. But, it seems right in line with Van's Aircraft's philosophy of simple, beautiful airplanes, moderately powered and efficient. It would be less than an F1, more than an RV-8 and a very desirable big brother to the RV-4 (which is very hard to build compared to the rest of the lineup). It is already a production version, just that Mark can't seem to get the kits made at a reasonable price. Van can certainly do the CNC production and make the kits, maybe offer up to a 200HP Lycoming as max recommended power. I think it would replace the RV-8 as a larger tandem with sex appeal and the same performance ability as the -8. They could collaborate on the concept and, together, give their customers a new, easily marketable beauty for us to build.

*A tapered wing F-4 is not even a consideration due to weight, power requirements and CG issues (per Mark)

Ok...flame away

Ron
RV-4 (and an F-4 is the only airplane I would be willing to trade it for)

Last edited by patterson : 03-30-2016 at 10:54 PM.
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  #40  
Old 03-31-2016, 10:08 AM
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smokyray smokyray is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TX32
Posts: 1,966
Default Close but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall View Post
Yup, the SeaRey comes pretty close to what I have in mind. I just think that there is some wiggle room to come a bit closer yet without breaking the bank, and that the RV-12 is a good platform to start from.

Thanks, Bob K.
Bob, I admire your candor sir!
However comma, living in the Orlando area (amphib heaven) for 15 years and knowing many Amphibian owners, even Searey had a tough time selling enough airplanes to keep the doors open. Avid sold 1 Catalina for every 230 Flyers. The list of failed Experimental Amphibian companies is long and distinguished. The market is limited IMHO compared to more conventional aircraft. Not to say that should ever be a reason not to design and build something. A float compatible RV that is lower cost might fit both requirements and attract "lower budget" builders.

That said, I believe Van missed the boat (so to speak) on designing a lower cost "Glastar Competitor" that could be trailered home or powered by alternative powerplants or float equipped. The RV12 was headed in the right direction but more expensive and too LSA/ELSA formulated.
I believe the next RV should be an LSA compliant lower cost all-metal high folding-wing, STOL sport aerobatic capable sportplane with alternative powerplant options priced accordingly.

Similar type aircraft that exists already?
Yep, the Groppo Trail...


I give you the RV16...

V/R
Smokey

PS: I would be hard pressed to design a better overall sport aircraft than the RV4. The Panther however, is growling...

Last edited by smokyray : 03-31-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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