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02-28-2016, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 107
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Alternative manufacturers of quick build kits?
Looking at the long lead times of quick build kits and the lack of flexibility regarding modifications, like the use of a different primer, I was wondering if there are possibly alternative manufacturers of quick build kits, using the Van's slow build kits as a basis?
I searched the forum, but came up empty handed, except of builder's assist programs, which are however rather high $$ and which follow a different approach.
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* Flying Mooney M20E
* RV-10 kit on hold
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02-28-2016, 09:07 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver
Looking at the long lead times of quick build kits and the lack of flexibility regarding modifications, like the use of a different primer, I was wondering if there are possibly alternative manufacturers of quick build kits, using the Van's slow build kits as a basis?
I searched the forum, but came up empty handed, except of builder's assist programs, which are however rather high $$ and which follow a different approach.
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The Quick Build Kit from Van's is FAA approved as an Amateur Built kit. If built by an individual for education and recreation, there should be no issue getting it licensed as an amateur built experimental.
Any RV kit other than an RV kit from Van's is considered Paid Commercial Assistance and should not be issued an airworthiness certificated as Amateur Built aircraft according to the way the FAA orders are written.
IF someone were to build a partial RV for themselves only to decide they did not want to finish it because they lost interest or had health issues, they could sell the project to another to finish and as long as all parties involved in said project were doing the build for education and or recreation.
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6 Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012
To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
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02-28-2016, 09:11 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer
[...] Any RV kit other than an RV kit from Van's is considered Paid Commercial Assistance and should not be issued an airworthiness certificated as Amateur Built aircraft according to the way the FAA orders are written. [...]
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Thank you for the explanation, this explains why I couldn't find any providers...
__________________
* Flying Mooney M20E
* RV-10 kit on hold
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02-28-2016, 11:11 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: santa barbara, CA
Posts: 1,682
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On the other hand, builders farm out individual aspects (admittedly usually small items) of the build process all the time. Isnt what really matters that 51% be amateur built? What rule says you can't buy a kit from vans and then have someone build your wings for you?
Not arguing, just thought more clarification would be helpful here.
Erich
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02-28-2016, 11:22 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erich weaver
On the other hand, builders farm out individual aspects (admittedly usually small items) of the build process all the time. Isnt what really matters that 51% be amateur built? What rule says you can't buy a kit from vans and then have someone build your wings for you?
Not arguing, just thought more clarification would be helpful here.
Erich
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FAA Order 8130.2H:
456. Determination of Major Portion. The determination of major portion is made by evaluating the amount of work accomplished by the amateur builder(s) against the total amount of work necessary to complete the aircraft, excluding standard procured items. The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than 50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the “51-percent rule.” An aircraft is not eligible for an experimental amateur-built certificate under § 21.191(g) if the major portion of the aircraft fabrication and assembly tasks are not completed by an amateur builder(s).
If your "wing builder" does it for free, then they are "amateur builders" and will be listed on the 8130.12 as a builder of the aircraft.
If they charge you a fee. then they are not "amateur-builders" and their work doesn't count toward the 51%. If you start out with a quick-build kit, there's not much wriggle room to stay within the 51%.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
Last edited by Mel : 02-28-2016 at 11:25 AM.
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02-28-2016, 11:37 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 107
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Now that I think about this topic, I am getting curious.
My understanding is, that the approval of the quick build kits is based on the evaluation whether at least 51% of the work remains left to do for the builder. Couldn't a third party provider buy a slow build kit from Van's, assemble it to exactly the same stage as the factory qb kits and then sell it? The work which is left to do for the builder, would then be the same as with the factory qb kit.
Also, how do the builder's assist programs fit into this? What is the legal basis for their involvement, as they offer their services for compensation?
__________________
* Flying Mooney M20E
* RV-10 kit on hold
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02-28-2016, 11:44 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: South California
Posts: 244
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Page 3 and 4 preview plan... Commercial assistance. It's right there. I was lookin into the same path. Then I posted, got smacked, decided to read the pp set and wahlah there it was the whole time. Read the pp set then re read then re re read. Then go make a plane.
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02-28-2016, 11:51 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: South California
Posts: 244
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Oliver good point, if a shop could get a contract or license agreement with vans maybe! I'm not a lawyer. I would like to hear from anyone who has been cited for any part of this violation. How does the faa bust you? Drones. Tapping bank accounts,emails,phone calls.
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02-28-2016, 04:54 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: northern Cal
Posts: 111
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QB Kits
QB Kits are already assembled by a third party over seas.
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02-28-2016, 05:46 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL KCLW
Posts: 1,281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
FAA Order 8130.2H:
456. Determination of Major Portion. The determination of major portion is made by evaluating the amount of work accomplished by the amateur builder(s) against the total amount of work necessary to complete the aircraft, excluding standard procured items. The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than 50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the ?51-percent rule.? An aircraft is not eligible for an experimental amateur-built certificate under ? 21.191(g) if the major portion of the aircraft fabrication and assembly tasks are not completed by an amateur builder(s).
If your "wing builder" does it for free, then they are "amateur builders" and will be listed on the 8130.12 as a builder of the aircraft.
If they charge you a fee. then they are not "amateur-builders" and their work doesn't count toward the 51%. If you start out with a quick-build kit, there's not much wriggle room to stay within the 51%.
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I don't believe he is referring to starting out with a QB kit and then paying people to assemble more of it. He just means having somebody else assemble the first 49%, to the same stage of completion as they come from Van's people overseas. Either way, a third party is building 49% of the plane for a fee. In one case, you pay them through an intermediary (Vans), in the other you contract with them and pay them directly. Seems the same to me. Now, the FAA has already agreed that QB kits as supplied by Vans meet the 51% rule. You may have to be prepared to show that your build also left you 51%, and I'm not sure how involved that would be...
Chris
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Chris Johnson
RV-9A - Done(ish) 4/5/16! Flying 4/7/16
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