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  #71  
Old 02-12-2016, 09:44 AM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Burbidge View Post
I'm a casual p-mag user. By that I mean, I conscienciously installed my p-mag per instructions. I always pre-flight per recommendations. But I don't have that much instrumentation. I have a Van's CHT and EGT gauge on #3.

I only have a few hours on my p-mag. (One p-mag, one slick) But so far it has performed reliably.

In some ways this thread is unfortunate. Now every time I fly I have nagging doubts about my p-mag. I notice the slick in the back of the hangar and wonder if I should just get it overhauled, to get rid of my doubts.

Yes I could install more instrumentation. But I like keeping my airplane simple. That's one thing I really liked about p-mag. It is a simple, straightforward replacement for my slick that needed overhauling.

If I knew the answers to the following questions, I might feel better.

How many engines have be ruined by a p-mag? How many inflight engine stoppages have been caused by a p-mag?

Thanks,
Michael-
Michael,

Tons of airplanes flying around in the same situation as you.

I have rolled my own monitor for my P-Mag and have not seen anything that makes me want to pull my P-Mag and lose the benefits it provides.

Take a macro look at this thread and the reported history of the P-Mag since they went thru their teeth cutting period and you may feel better.

There is also another possibility that nobody has mentioned yet in this thread....I just don't have the energy or passion around this discussion to bring it up.
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Last edited by Brantel : 02-12-2016 at 09:46 AM.
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  #72  
Old 02-12-2016, 10:22 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Burbidge View Post
...
How many engines have be ruined by a p-mag? How many inflight engine stoppages have been caused by a p-mag?

Thanks,
Michael-
Michael,

You absolutely DO NOT need an EICommander to fly safely with the P-mags!

Having tracked a number of issues over the years, I believe that with all the updates Emag has made to the P-mags, up to and including the firmware version 40 update, they have licked the last of their issues.

The early P-mags had problems with the trigger magnet falling off. Between that and their software issues, there were a number of lost timing incidents. The magnets are now securely held in place and as far as I know, are holding up well.

As I explained earlier, the version 40 upgrade solves the last of the known software (unexplained) lost timing issues. These typically happened with people running a mixed ignition or using independent ignition switches and turn the engine over with one P-mag powered but grounded. That is the set-up mode and although the average of the manifold pressure is negative, there are high intensity positive pulses in the system that act just like someone blowing on the tube trying to set the timing. So the crank turns, the P-mag gets two positive pulses and resets the timing to some unknown crank angle.

As I mentioned, as soon as we discovered this, we notified Emag, and they had a fix out within a week. That was a year and a half ago and since then they have not introduced any new updates. (We also requested they set the timing for starting to a few degrees after TDC to reduce the chance of a kickback, which they did.)

To answer your questions, "How many engines have be ruined by a p-mag? How many inflight engine stoppages have been caused by a p-mag?"
That is difficult to answer. Early on, a "Canard Guy" claimed the P-mag destroyed his engine; however, he installed the P-mags after his engine had chewed up his standard mag's. When I read his comments, it sounded to me like he had an issue, unrelated to the P-mags and was trying to get Emag to buy him a new engine.
Also, the P-mags have gone through a number of hardware and firmware updates over the years. So while there were some issues, I am unaware of any that truly caused an inflight engine stoppage or damage.

As far as I know, there has not been a single lost timing issue with version 40. The number of 113 P-mags flying without the hardware and software upgrades is unknown to me. Maybe the Emag guys can tell you.

I now have 700 hours behind P-mags and have had two issues. On my second flight, running early 113's, I lost the timing on one and saw my CHT's climb significantly higher than I would like on climb out. I was able to throttle back and land safely. (That was the genesis of the EICommander.) The P-mags were sent in for a software update and the problem never reoccurred. (My wiring is different than recommended.) Had I known about the timing issues then, I could have cycled my P-mags, one at a time, and isolated the bad ignition in flight and saved myself a lot of angst!

When Emag announced the fix for the magnet retention, I immediately sent them both in for the upgrade.

When I changed my engine, I bought the 114 boards and installed them in both P-mags. (I have 113 bodies with 114 electronics. We needed to be able to test the EIC with the new boards.)

At 500.2 hours, the internal generator on one of my P-mags died. The ignition never skipped a beat and the only way I knew there was an issue was during my pre-flight, where I drop the power to the P-mags, one at a time, and the engine died. I think I might be the only one who had that issue and I attribute it to the catastrophic prop strike that caused me to change the engine.

Back to your concern, as long as you have all the hardware updates (114's include all these updates), are running the correct timing and have installed and timed the P-mag correctly, you should not have an issue.

Feel free to send me your number, if you want to talk off line about the P-mag.
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Last edited by N941WR : 02-12-2016 at 03:56 PM.
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  #73  
Old 02-12-2016, 10:49 AM
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FasGlas FasGlas is online now
 
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Seeing how I'm the one that is doing the most tracking here of the anomalies I've been monitoring I'd like to say that my engine, running two pmags, has never failed during flight. I have, on a some occasions, had to pull the power way back to get the CHT's down some, even at cruise settings. But taking about 10 degs out of the advance has rained in the CHT over temps.

I have never said the I've had engine failure from pmags or that you must have an EIC to fly pmags. What I've said over and over is that without an EIC or laptops with EICAD you have no way to monitor your important ignition systems. With pmags, complete failure was not always the issue, timing shifts were an issue as well. This could be catastrophic, even with a mag backup, but I personally don't know of anyone that has had a catastrophic failure from a pmag.

It's up to each pilot what makes him / her feel comfortable in the cockpit. I personally feel that the more performance you ask from an engine or aircraft the more you need to monitor and make sure everything is working as expected. You don't want to find out that something is not working properly when it's too late.

Anyone can take a look at all the monitoring pics I've posted and come to their own conclusion. I didn't make up these pics, there's no photo shop here, this data is real.

Last edited by FasGlas : 02-12-2016 at 10:53 AM.
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  #74  
Old 02-12-2016, 01:55 PM
eddieseve eddieseve is offline
 
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Thanks for the comprehensive description Bill, makes me want to own an ECI commander :-)

Cheers
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  #75  
Old 02-12-2016, 02:35 PM
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AZtailwind AZtailwind is offline
 
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Default 114

As a data point- FWIW: I have ran the 114 and a slick mag setup through the A-curve operation with the exception of one winter at B-curve. If there are temporary or permanent issues, I have not seen these of over 500 hours and 4 years. My P-mag is due for a checkup I believe. My main concern of the P-Mag is seeing over 200 deg temps in the desert summer by a heat soaked engine compartment. The P-mag has seen the round sensor turn color some time last year or more. But I believe this color turn is a continuation of heat exposure for some X(?) time frame. I have ran the EICAD software on the 114 to verify the setup and even thought of setting a more conservative advance base than the A Curve. For the short duration of checks of PMag timing and operation with EICAD- It works as advertised.
Also, my slick failed in flight and the P-mag was the ignition source that continued powered flight to the next airport.
That's my experience so far,
your mileage .... (insert )...may vary
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  #76  
Old 02-12-2016, 03:49 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZtailwind View Post
... My main concern of the P-Mag is seeing over 200 deg temps in the desert summer by a heat soaked engine compartment. The P-mag has seen the round sensor turn color some time last year or more. But I believe this color turn is a continuation of heat exposure for some X(?) time frame. ...
Brad, we have noticed that the heat exposure comes when you land on a hot day, on a hot ramp, not necessarily in flight.

The high temperature on the P-mags tend to get set when someone lands, pulls up to the pumps and shuts down. Lets everything get nice and hot under the cowling while fueling, and then powers up the P-mags. i.e.: Normal operation. That heat soaked P-mag sets the max temp and it never goes away. That said, I live in the Carolinas and have seen some extremely hot and humid days (Hi 90's on both) and the P-mags have never skipped a beat. Granted, that is no Arizona hot but I don't think the few degrees difference will hurt the P-mags.

Having them in for a checkup is worth the cost.
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RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
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  #77  
Old 02-12-2016, 03:51 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddieseve View Post
Thanks for the comprehensive description Bill, makes me want to own an ECI commander :-)

Cheers
Thanks Eddie. Contact Aircraft Spruce, they will be happy to ship you one. We do not sell direct due to tax issues and export issues in your case.
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RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html

Last edited by N941WR : 02-12-2016 at 03:58 PM.
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  #78  
Old 02-12-2016, 04:09 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Sheila View Post
I have just installed 2 E-Mags on my RV6 with O-320 and I am looking for the best blast tubes to use and a way to install them. Any pics and suggestions. Once I get these on I can fly.
Tony
This is probably the best picture I have of how I secured my blast tubes. Two adel clamps have worked fine. Remember, they are supposed to blow on the neck of the P-mag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy View Post
An idea I had when installing my 2 Pmags was to make an enclosure around the finned area of the Pmag to help make the air blast more effective. ...
If you make a shroud, please post pictures!
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Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
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www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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  #79  
Old 02-12-2016, 09:16 PM
jakej jakej is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Thanks Eddie. Contact Aircraft Spruce, they will be happy to ship you one. We do not sell direct due to tax issues and export issues in your case.
Eddie

I have a shipment about ready to go to OZ, we can share the shipping cost if you want.

Jake J

Running 2 P-Mags with 200+ hrs so far, all's good !!

Last edited by jakej : 02-12-2016 at 09:18 PM.
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  #80  
Old 02-13-2016, 03:45 AM
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drill_and_buck drill_and_buck is offline
 
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Default Easiest way to orient Pmag blast tube

Not my idea, copied from someone else on VAF. Simple to install, works great. Easiest way to keep a blast tube pointed to the neck of the Pmag is to use some safety wire. Run a loop of safety wire around the neck of the Pmag and up the inside of the blast tube. Secure the safety wire on the engine side of the baffle.

This ensures that the end of the blast tube will always be pointing to the neck of the Pmag. No clamps needed.
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Last edited by drill_and_buck : 02-13-2016 at 04:21 AM.
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