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  #41  
Old 01-07-2016, 12:35 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRider32 View Post
Straight from Vans site:

POWERPLANT KIT (Due to the competitive nature of items contained in Powerplant Kits, credit cards can only be
accepted for the initial 25% deposit. At least 75% of the Powerplant Kit payment MUST be paid by cash, check, money order
or bank transfer.)

$27,750.00
I think what Daves point was is that comparing $10000 to $28000 isn't apples to apples, because the $28000 is with absolutely everything needed (not just the engine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRider32 View Post
It doesn't, if I implied it did, I did not mean too. The FWF kit from Viking is listed on their site at $5,920. Add that to the 110hp $9,995 engine and you're to $16,000 for prop, spinner, mount, etc....
$28,000 - $16,000 is still $12,000, no matter how you slice it.....
So is anyone that has installed a Viking engine using the available kit willing to report whether the kit came with absolutely everything for the complete installation, and they had to purchase nothing else other than coolant?
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  #42  
Old 01-07-2016, 01:04 PM
GhostRider32 GhostRider32 is offline
 
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The data is available. Youtube has numerous videos with current Viking owners and their engines. Anyone can go to their website where it shows all that is included, or one could actually call and talk to those with a RV-12 Viking just as one can call and talk to someone with an RV-12 UL Power or talk to someone with a RV-12 Jabiru. It would be inappropriate to list personal phone numbers without the owners approval but the information is easily obtained.

In this very thread there has been a poster with a Viking RV-12 who stated this:

"Overall I have no problem with the engine itself, the PSRU, or the engine mounting. All of the parts are top qualify, fit well, and are beautifully machined and finished. I have to admit I could not resist powder coating the aluminum intake, valve cover and coolant piping in candy apple red to go with the gold anodizing on the PSRU and accessory/mount bracket. Weight and CG numbers look fine, just hitting the forward limit with me and 4 gallons of fuel remaining."


The poster then went on to say that he would do it again..... A man with actual experience with the engine said that, not someone who has only heard or read others comments.

To each his own. Safe landings.
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  #43  
Old 01-07-2016, 01:27 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRider32 View Post
In this very thread there has been a poster with a Viking RV-12 who stated this:

"Overall I have no problem with the engine itself, the PSRU, or the engine mounting. All of the parts are top qualify, fit well, and are beautifully machined and finished. I have to admit I could not resist powder coating the aluminum intake, valve cover and coolant piping in candy apple red to go with the gold anodizing on the PSRU and accessory/mount bracket. Weight and CG numbers look fine, just hitting the forward limit with me and 4 gallons of fuel remaining."


The poster then went on to say that he would do it again..... A man with actual experience with the engine said that, not someone who has only heard or read others comments.

To each his own. Safe landings.
Yes and he also said that he redesigned and replaced a lot of parts that he didn't think were up to the quality that he is willing to bet his life on.... (entire post you referred to quoted below). That was the main premise of my question (in the context of comparing the cost of two different FWF kits).... Does the typical customer feel that the Viking kit, as supplied, comes with everything needed to do a good engine installation...I.E. didn't have to (or have the desire too) purchase anything else? That is an important factor if you want to compare the cost of one kit to another.
Note.... this has nothing to do with debating whether the Viking engine is a good option... it is simply looking at what the real world cost differences are without even factoring in additional costs that could come along if any portion of the Viking installation is found to not be able to survive to the same 2000 hr TBO that the Rotax 912 can. BTW, That is not a judgmental statement, it is simple fact.n The people flying Viking engines right now today, are the ones doing the R & D work to determine where the designs weaknesses are (if there are any).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor View Post
Scott,
As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. In my case it comes down to the level of quality that I am willing to bet my life on. As an example, I wanted my firewall completely sealed so the standard direction to cut a big hole in the firewall to pass a DB37 harness connector was not acceptable. I traced and documented every wire in the engine harness, then cut it and wired it to a MIL-Circular connector on the firewall. I did not want the oil cooler on the firewall, I wanted it on the engine which ment engineering and fabricating custom brackets for a new oil cooler. I also redesigned the dual battery electrical power distribution as the original specified wire gauges and fuse ratings were not properly matched. BTW, I did not use any of the standard Van's RV-12 electrical system, so this was not a big deal to add on. I did not like the fit of the cowl so lots of glasswork, cutting and sanding later I have something I like (might have gone overboard with the hidden oil door). I also did a lot of work on the fuel system as I do not like rubber hoses, plastic fuel filters, or the recommended component locations. I built a removable dual fuel pump module that fits in the tunnel between the rudder cables and had Tom S fabricate SS Teflon hoses with AN fittings for anything that is not a hard line. The fuel tank required a mod to change the location of the bypass return line from the filler pipe to the intake sump area. I ran a test with 4 gallons of fuel iin the tank (top of the internal baffle) and found those 46 psi FI fuel pumps will suck the sump dry faster than the openings in the baffles will refill it. (and I have no intention of installing the "wing" tanks).

You are also on your own for plumbing and mounting a pitot/AOA, which is not a minor task with already built wings. Same for battery mounting and the coolant overflow tank mount. I knew almost all of the above going in from the research I did, so I do not look at it as a negative.

Overall I have no problem with the engine itself, the PSRU, or the engine mounting. All of the parts are top qualify, fit well, and are beautifully machined and finished. I have to admit I could not resist powder coating the aluminum intake, valve cover and coolant piping in candy apple red to go with the gold anodizing on the PSRU and accessory/mount bracket. Weight and CG numbers look fine, just hitting the forward limit with me and 4 gallons of fuel remaining.

Time wise, for me it easily added two years over what the Rotax RV-12 FWF would have taken. Dollar wise, what's two years of not flying your airplane worth (not to mention spam can rentals in the mean time). Cost savings is not what motivated me to go this route, if I were just going for a cheap RV-12 I would not have put an IFD-540 in the panel. Would I do it again? Yes, because I enjoyed every minute of solving the problems and building MY RV. When people give me a puzzled look and ask why am I building my own plane, I simply tell them "because I can". I think the goal of of lowering the cost of the FWF package is laudable, I have no issues with the technology or quality, and I have my own standards to filter the "good enough" details needed to make it all airworthy for me.

John Salak
RV-12 120116
N896HS
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #44  
Old 01-07-2016, 06:37 PM
Reese Reese is offline
 
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Viking has been plagued with many of the same problems they had when dealing with the other engines...... just not as bad.

custom intake problems - anyone that knows anything about intake design would shake their head at his original design. Yep, nice long runners, but then they're all smashed together right in front of the throttle body

EFI problems or not shipping with EFI computer at all

Shipping delays in general

Not making claimed power

Still using "used" engines and selling them as new

multiple generations of PSRU revisions

automotive quality engine wiring

Latest vids on youtube now show them using a completely different mounting system for the GDI engine, another generation of gearbox and back to using factory OEM intake.
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  #45  
Old 01-07-2016, 07:54 PM
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rv7boy rv7boy is offline
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  #46  
Old 01-07-2016, 10:53 PM
12vaitor 12vaitor is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
That was the main premise of my question (in the context of comparing the cost of two different FWF kits).... Does the typical customer feel that the Viking kit, as supplied, comes with everything needed to do a good engine installation...I.E. didn't have to (or have the desire too) purchase anything else? That is an important factor if you want to compare the cost of one kit to another.
The dollar costs quoted in various posts are an apples and oranges comparison. Van's is a complete kit with detailed instructions for a standardized installation. Viking provides most of what you need, but you have to figure out (and buy) some items like a pitot static system and roll your own Dynon EMS interface and displays. I have yet to see any two RV-12 Viking installations that look the same, and installing a FWF kit using a video is not quite the same as using drawings similar to what you used for the rest of the RV-12 build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
The people flying Viking engines right now today, are the ones doing the R & D work to determine where the designs weaknesses are (if there are any).
Concur 100%. You will not find any data from Viking on the fuel tank sump being pumped dry once the fuel level goes below the baffle spillover. I just happen to know what kind of volume the bypass sends back to the tank, which prompted the testing and redesign. Glad I did not have to find out about that the hard way while flying at a low fuel state. I will say the RV-12 Rotax is not without its design issues from reading the service bulletins, but you can apply that to ANY aircraft. Keeping it in perspective, even when I am flying a fully certified C-172 I presume the engine is going to quit on take-off, or any time in-flight. That also applies when I fly a rental SLSA RV-12 or my Viking RV-12.

-------
Reese: The discussion would be far more helpful if you would stick to facts you know something about.
  • There is nothing "smashed together" on the intake manifold, it is an equal length runner design with a small plenum on the air control body. Good design for making power at high rpm.
  • No problems on the EFI injectors (standard Honda part) or ECU (there was a software update for improved cold weather starting). There were some reports of improved performance after cleaning the injectors on engines that sat unused for a couple of years.
  • Have you dyno'ed the engine to know it is not making the claimed 110 HP? Honda specs the engine at 117 HP and every Viking RV-12 flying has reported a bit more speed than a 100 HP Rotax RV-12 (I have the same Sensenich prop as the Rotax RV-12, it just turns left instead of right). Not sure how you can do that with less HP than the Rotax.
  • I have never seen a claim that the engine is zero-time "new", it was clear where the engines came from when I purchased mine. The fact that you can get a spare core engine for $1,500 should be a hint this is not a new engine.
  • The only change to the PSRU design in the past four years (as used on my RV-12) was going from self-contained oiling to using engine oil and a return to the engine oil tank. The flywheel/starter ring changed from a machined aluminum design to a steel version. I see no reason to change mine to either modification.
  • Wiring looks to be the standard Honda FIT engine wiring harness for FI, FI sensors, and spark coils. You have to do your own starter, alternator, and engine (oil, water,etc.) sensor wiring. I used aircraft wire purchased from SteinAir. I have seen some automotive wire jobs being used, but that is on the builder.
  • The 135 HP GDI is a different engine than the 110 HP engine. The orientation change may be better from some FWF applications, not sure I would put a 135 HP engine on an RV-12. Looks like they are also working on a turbocharged version at 170 HP. I would think changing the PSRU would be desirable given the HP increases being discussed. BTW, they did not hide the fact that the turbocharged 110 had problems that caused them to drop the design.

I do have a problem with the cavalier attitude about W&B, pushing designs past VME, and presuming both Van's and the aircraft industry in general does not know what they are doing. Sadly, there is a crowd out there that likes playing fast and loose (and not limited to RVs either), and are perfectly willing to risk their lives doing so.

John Salak
RV-12 120116
N896HS
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  #47  
Old 01-08-2016, 05:38 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor View Post
The dollar costs quoted in various posts are an apples and oranges comparison. Van's is a complete kit with detailed instructions for a standardized installation. Viking provides most of what you need, but you have to figure out (and buy) some items like a pitot static system and roll your own Dynon EMS interface and displays. I have yet to see any two RV-12 Viking installations that look the same, and installing a FWF kit using a video is not quite the same as using drawings similar to what you used for the rest of the RV-12 build.



Concur 100%. You will not find any data from Viking on the fuel tank sump being pumped dry once the fuel level goes below the baffle spillover. I just happen to know what kind of volume the bypass sends back to the tank, which prompted the testing and redesign. Glad I did not have to find out about that the hard way while flying at a low fuel state. I will say the RV-12 Rotax is not without its design issues from reading the service bulletins, but you can apply that to ANY aircraft. Keeping it in perspective, even when I am flying a fully certified C-172 I presume the engine is going to quit on take-off, or any time in-flight. That also applies when I fly a rental SLSA RV-12 or my Viking RV-12.

-------
Reese: The discussion would be far more helpful if you would stick to facts you know something about.
  • There is nothing "smashed together" on the intake manifold, it is an equal length runner design with a small plenum on the air control body. Good design for making power at high rpm.
  • No problems on the EFI injectors (standard Honda part) or ECU (there was a software update for improved cold weather starting). There were some reports of improved performance after cleaning the injectors on engines that sat unused for a couple of years.
  • Have you dyno'ed the engine to know it is not making the claimed 110 HP? Honda specs the engine at 117 HP and every Viking RV-12 flying has reported a bit more speed than a 100 HP Rotax RV-12 (I have the same Sensenich prop as the Rotax RV-12, it just turns left instead of right). Not sure how you can do that with less HP than the Rotax.
  • I have never seen a claim that the engine is zero-time "new", it was clear where the engines came from when I purchased mine. The fact that you can get a spare core engine for $1,500 should be a hint this is not a new engine.
  • The only change to the PSRU design in the past four years (as used on my RV-12) was going from self-contained oiling to using engine oil and a return to the engine oil tank. The flywheel/starter ring changed from a machined aluminum design to a steel version. I see no reason to change mine to either modification.
  • Wiring looks to be the standard Honda FIT engine wiring harness for FI, FI sensors, and spark coils. You have to do your own starter, alternator, and engine (oil, water,etc.) sensor wiring. I used aircraft wire purchased from SteinAir. I have seen some automotive wire jobs being used, but that is on the builder.
  • The 135 HP GDI is a different engine than the 110 HP engine. The orientation change may be better from some FWF applications, not sure I would put a 135 HP engine on an RV-12. Looks like they are also working on a turbocharged version at 170 HP. I would think changing the PSRU would be desirable given the HP increases being discussed. BTW, they did not hide the fact that the turbocharged 110 had problems that caused them to drop the design.

I do have a problem with the cavalier attitude about W&B, pushing designs past VME, and presuming both Van's and the aircraft industry in general does not know what they are doing. Sadly, there is a crowd out there that likes playing fast and loose (and not limited to RVs either), and are perfectly willing to risk their lives doing so.

John Salak
RV-12 120116
N896HS
Good Post John.

Having been there and back with the Egg Subby, (2 engines, some 400 hours of testing, one wrecked airplane) my take is if Jan had stuck with the H4 and worked out the problems the effort would have been more successful. But he went on to bigger and better things with the H6 looking unrealistically to the RV-10 market and never resolved a basic problem of an inadequately designed PSRU and a cooling concept that was just did not work.

I know how you feel, taking on something new and determined to make it work. Unlike the Subaru effort, sounds like the Viking does indeed produce the power advertised. If guys are getting Vans numbers regularly, that is something most Egg pilots did not. If the Viking cooling system and PSRU are working, excellent.

Congrats on your success, it is fun when it works.
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  #48  
Old 01-08-2016, 11:12 AM
Reese Reese is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor View Post

-------
Reese: The discussion would be far more helpful if you would stick to facts you know something about.
[list][*] There is nothing "smashed together" on the intake manifold, it is an equal length runner design with a small plenum on the air control body. Good design for making power at high rpm.

equal length long runners have nothing to do with high rpm power and everything to do with low end torque and small plenums with all the intake runners coming together like that is never a good design. Why do you think they had better results after installing the throttle body spacer ? I guarantee if you put that intake on a flow bench that each cylinder is getting a different amount of air, so one is making 23hp and another 22hp ect.

[*] No problems on the EFI injectors (standard Honda part) or ECU (there was a software update for improved cold weather starting). There were some reports of improved performance after cleaning the injectors on engines that sat unused for a couple of years.

I never said anything about the injectors and thank you for confirming that yes they have had on going ECU "updates" ...

[*] Have you dyno'ed the engine to know it is not making the claimed 110 HP? Honda specs the engine at 117 HP and every Viking RV-12 flying has reported a bit more speed than a 100 HP Rotax RV-12 (I have the same Sensenich prop as the Rotax RV-12, it just turns left instead of right). Not sure how you can do that with less HP than the Rotax.


Has ANYONE dyno'd one of these engine ? Including Viking ? I dont doubt it does make more power than the Rotax, since that is actually only a 95hp engine with less cubic inches. I never said anything in comparison to Rotax. I simply doubt their stated numbers. Can you show me a dyno graph and video of the engine in the dyno room ?


[*] I have never seen a claim that the engine is zero-time "new", it was clear where the engines came from when I purchased mine. The fact that you can get a spare core engine for $1,500 should be a hint this is not a new engine.

My point is that they are charging new engine prices for used engines. $10+k for a used engine with a bunch of parts bolted to it is steep. IMHO


[*] Wiring looks to be the standard Honda FIT engine wiring harness for FI, FI sensors, and spark coils. You have to do your own starter, alternator, and engine (oil, water,etc.) sensor wiring. I used aircraft wire purchased from SteinAir. I have seen some automotive wire jobs being used, but that is on the builder.

In my opinion all that should have come pre-wired with aircraft grade wire for the price of the engine. Devil is in the details.


John Salak
RV-12 120116
N896HS

Don't get me wrong here. I like auto-conversions. I like the Honda Fit engine in airplanes. I just have some nit picky things I dont like about Vikings particular installs and I think, in my opinion, that you should get a little better product for the price point. If you are happy with yours more power to you !
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  #49  
Old 01-08-2016, 12:11 PM
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Jerry Cochran Jerry Cochran is offline
 
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Default "3 month old"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dgamble View Post

"Viking has a steady supply of 3 month old Honda engines. These are close to new but has been in cars for testing or in slightly damaged cars where repairs to the chassis were found not to be economical."

T
And how does one verify the actual time on these engines? Is it Jan's word or is there documentation from others rather than Viking?

Reagan said about the old Russia: "Trust but verify." Goes here as well...
About the same as buying a "Low hours" Lyco

Jerry
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  #50  
Old 01-08-2016, 02:49 PM
bobnoffs bobnoffs is offline
 
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google the serial number and you will even see a pic of the car it was in.the site also has a place that for about $9 will give the mileage and damage history.
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