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  #1  
Old 12-18-2015, 03:16 PM
rv4jmw rv4jmw is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
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Default Changing propeller: Major alteration?

I have decided to change my prop from a wooden to a metal Sensenich. This appears to fall under the "major alteration" category. Anyone know of the requirements for reporting to FSDO, test flight requirements, or just a self-imposed testing period, with logbook entries?

Thanks,

John

RV-4 flying for 8 happy years

Last edited by rv4jmw : 12-18-2015 at 03:18 PM. Reason: signature
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2015, 05:06 PM
RVDan RVDan is offline
 
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If the Sensenich is certified for use on your engine (typically is) it is reportable but should not take you back into Phase 1 or at least if it does should be limited to say 5 hrs. Just call your FSDO ask for someone in maintenance and discuss. Get acknowledgement in email or writing.
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2015, 05:37 PM
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Changing from wood to metal prop IS a major change. Primarily because it notably affects weight & balance.

You will need to go back into phase I for a minimum of 5 hours.
If your operating limitations were issued after around 1999, you should have a paragraph that allows you to put the airplane back into phase I yourself.
Be sure to check, as some op lims require you to notify the FSDO.
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  #4  
Old 12-18-2015, 06:32 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Default Check Limitations

As Mel said, check your limitations. I just did this today as I am going to test a different prop on the RV-10, so I called the FSDO and it was a very pleasant phone call. He initially thought I would have to come in so they could change my Limitations, but I politely explained how it should work and that I promised to do it right and make all of the appropriate entries and I was told "fly safe and have a merry Christmas'.
Couldn't have been easier.

Vic
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  #5  
Old 12-18-2015, 06:59 PM
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Mark Albery Mark Albery is offline
 
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I did this through Oakland FSDO recently. I agreed a 1 hour test schedule and proposed a route in/out of KHWD, which they accepted.

I sent them my proposal including weighing and adjusting the weight and balance schedule, inspection (torque, tracking etc), ground test and flight test schedules.

That was probably more than necessary, but it got accepted straight away.
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  #6  
Old 12-18-2015, 07:10 PM
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Jesse Jesse is offline
 
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My experience has been exactly like Vic's post. If changing from fixed pitch to constant speed, that requires more FSDO interaction. A change from one fixed pitch to another is easier. You probably need to notify, but should only need a logbook entry. On a certified plane, it usually would require a 337 form, which is a major repair or alteration, so I would consider it major. As Mel said, it depends on how your operating limitations read.
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  #7  
Old 12-26-2015, 09:02 AM
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osxuser osxuser is offline
 
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Every oplim I've ever read requires 5 hours regardless of what the change is. Even fixed pitch to fixed pitch. If you can get something in writing form FSDO that decreases or eliminates that requirement, that is an alternative. When we were racing we did Phase 1 for every pitch of propeller we were going to use, then documented them all as approved combos so we could quick change at Reno. All of them were 54" long Carbon props.
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  #8  
Old 12-26-2015, 01:48 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Default Ops specs

The ops specs guidance for new EAB certification changed earlier this year. I was the first EAB certification done by my DAR under the new guidance, early July 2015.
My DAR spent about two hours going over the paperwork with me. He was VERY SPECIFIC that under the new guidance any fixed pitch prop to any other fixed pitch IS NOT A MAJOR CHANGE and requires only a log book entry.
10 different FSDO or MIDO inspectors will probably have 10 different opinions on this subject.
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  #9  
Old 12-26-2015, 02:03 PM
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Default He was mistaken or you misunderstood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs14855 View Post
The ops specs guidance for new EAB certification changed earlier this year. I was the first EAB certification done by my DAR under the new guidance, early July 2015.
My DAR spent about two hours going over the paperwork with me. He was VERY SPECIFIC that under the new guidance any fixed pitch prop to any other fixed pitch IS NOT A MAJOR CHANGE and requires only a log book entry.
10 different FSDO or MIDO inspectors will probably have 10 different opinions on this subject.
The changes came about in May of this year. I spent weeks corresponding with the FAA over the changes. We finally got most (I think) of the errors ironed out. I've done 38 certifications to the new order.

The paragraph concerning major changes did not change from the old op lims. The wording is exactly the same as it was before. Any change that substantially changes weight & balance is still considered to be major and requires returning to phase I.
Changing a F/P to or from a controllable prop also requires a new 8130-6. This is not required for F/P to F/P. Maybe this is what he was talking about.

"After incorporating a major change as described in 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with 91.319......."
91.93(a) states that (paraphrasing) a minor change is one that has no appreciable effect on weight & balance, structural strength, etc.....It goes on to state that any change that does not qualify as minor is considered to be major.
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Last edited by Mel : 12-26-2015 at 02:13 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-26-2015, 07:09 PM
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n82rb n82rb is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
The changes came about in May of this year. I spent weeks corresponding with the FAA over the changes. We finally got most (I think) of the errors ironed out. I've done 38 certifications to the new order.

The paragraph concerning major changes did not change from the old op lims. The wording is exactly the same as it was before. Any change that substantially changes weight & balance is still considered to be major and requires returning to phase I.
Changing a F/P to or from a controllable prop also requires a new 8130-6. This is not required for F/P to F/P. Maybe this is what he was talking about.

"After incorporating a major change as described in 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with 91.319......."
91.93(a) states that (paraphrasing) a minor change is one that has no appreciable effect on weight & balance, structural strength, etc.....It goes on to state that any change that does not qualify as minor is considered to be major.
Mel, I fully agree that ANY prop change is a major and that phase 1 must be done. props are changed to change performance and that is one of the functions of phase 1, to document performance.

however, playing devils advocate here, what constitutes "appreciable"? if you change from from one wood fixed pitch to another brand and the difference is 2 oz, does that constitute "appreciable". has the FAA given any sort of guidance on that?

bob burns
N82RB RV-4
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